Child Free By Choice with Courtney Alesandro Artwork

Carrie's Always Talking

The podcast all about stories and connection. Every other week there will be stories from people just like you, or perhaps it will be YOU! Stories are a part of the foundation of life, and they are one of the main ways we learn about one another. Hearing someone share their experience can be healing not only for the person sharing but also for those listening. You might laugh, you might cry, but you also might also learn that we're more alike than you think.

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Carrie's Always Talking

Child Free By Choice with Courtney Alesandro

September 24, 2024 • Carrie McNulty • Season 1 • Episode 11

In episode 11 of Carrie's Always Talking, Courtney Alesandro joins Carrie to discuss the complexities of being child-free by choice, exploring societal norms, personal choices, and the emotional landscape surrounding motherhood. They delve into the value of women beyond their roles as mothers, the impact of patriarchy on women's decisions, and the importance of empathy and understanding in conversations about reproductive choices. The discussion emphasizes the need for curiosity over assumptions and encourages listeners to reflect on their reactions to others' choices.

Carrie highlights the idea that making the choice not to mother or nurture does not make a person less worthwhile, even if it elicits a negative reaction to those around them. Both Carrie and Courtney share some of their experiences as women who have made this choice in their own lives. As always, there are lots of laughs and connection while discussing this topic that has become more politicized in recent months.

If you have a story you'd like to tell, send me an email at carrie.always.talking@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.

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Carrie McNulty (00:00.0)

Hey everybody, welcome back. This is episode 11 of Carrie's Always Talking and I am your host Carrie McNulty. This is podcast all about stories and connections. I believe that people telling and sharing their stories with one another is one of the main ways that we build empathy and connection. And I think that's something that we could use more of in the world today. Well, this is a...

Carrie McNulty (00:25.262)

I would say that today's episode is maybe a little less of storytelling. There is a little bit of sharing a similar experience, sharing your own perspective on this topic. But it isn't necessarily just a full story. in that way, it's a little bit different. But you will get to know a little bit more about me and my guest today, who is somebody that I've had on before a couple of times, Courtney Alessandro. I just love recording with her, one, because she's my best friend and it's fun to talk to her. But also, I really like her perspective on things.

Carrie McNulty (00:55.114)

And so the topic today is being child free by choice and making decisions outside of the social norm. It's sort of centering more on the child free by choice because unfortunately that's something that's becoming politicized right now. And it really shouldn't be. It really has no place in that arena. As far as I'm concerned, it's a choice that people have been making for as long as time has existed. But the hope is that you will get

Carrie McNulty (01:22.44)

the perspective of two women who have made that decision in our lives. And also just the curiosity around when somebody tells you that they've made that choice and you've made the opposite choice, why that feels like something to be defensive around. And we try to pick that apart a little bit and try to understand that a little bit more between the two of us. it is, you know, it's a, again, a little bit of a heavier topic, but also I think we kind of make it fun. If you have been listening,

Carrie McNulty (01:51.746)

Thank you. Thank you for following along. Please share it with people who you also think might be interested. And if you could, like it on whatever platform you're listening to, be it Apple Podcasts or Spotify or radio, any place that you can review or rate the podcast. That would be fantastic if you did that, because that's another way that it gets noticed.

Carrie McNulty (02:15.535)

As always, if you want to come on the show and share a story of your own, can be, you know, a funny story, sad story, interesting story, whatever you want. If you are interested in coming on, please reach out. My email is always in the show notes. There's also a Facebook group and yeah, I would say email is probably the best way to reach me. So you can always catch that there in the show notes and I would love to hear from you.

Carrie McNulty (02:37.741)

So.

Carrie McNulty (02:39.586)

Yeah, that's what we have going on today. I'm gonna be chatting with Courtney again and hoping in the coming weeks to have somebody on with long COVID to talk about her experience with that. And in October, I mentioned this at the end of the podcast, but I am hoping to have some of my breast cancer friends on to talk more about their experiences with breast cancer because October is breast cancer awareness month. So with that said, I'm gonna go ahead and let us get into the conversation with Courtney and I will catch you on the other side.

Carrie McNulty (00:01.614)

Carrie McNulty (00:25.262)

Carrie McNulty (00:55.114)

Carrie McNulty (01:22.44)

Carrie McNulty (01:51.746)

Carrie McNulty (02:15.535)

Carrie McNulty (02:37.741)

So.

Carrie McNulty (02:39.586)

Carrie McNulty (03:10.404)

Hello Courtney, welcome back. It's been too long, I feel.

Courtney L Alesandro (03:11.897)

Well hello, Carrie.

Courtney L Alesandro (03:15.813)

it has been.

Carrie McNulty (03:17.666)

Yeah, think, well, of course, you know, I love recording with you. there was, especially when this topic came to mind, since it's everywhere right now, I was like, yes, Courtney, because she's right there with me on this. And you could be like, well, that's an echo chamber. Why don't you have somebody that feels differently? I don't want to.

Courtney L Alesandro (03:32.459)

So there you go.

Carrie McNulty (03:35.692)

I want my best friend who feels the exact same way about this topic that I do. That's who I want. Or you could choose not to, but I would rather you did and that you stayed because maybe you'll find it interesting if your perspective is different or maybe it will give you insight into a different way of operating in the world that is like the topic of today, mostly centered on

Courtney L Alesandro (03:39.109)

and we'll talk about it all day long. You're gonna have to listen to us.

Carrie McNulty (04:02.276)

being child -free by choice, but making decisions that are outside of the social norm. And how hard that could be, because in society, the social norm is a lot more about saying yes to things than it is about saying no to things. And when people say no to something that everybody else is doing, oftentimes that can be viewed as a threat for whatever reason. And I want to pick your brain about this, because I really, is a curiosity. I have no idea why people get very offended when you make a decision that's opposite of theirs.

Courtney L Alesandro (04:14.021)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (04:31.372)

If your life experience gives me some insight, I would love to hear why that is. But oftentimes when you say, never wanted to parent, I never wanted a mother, I never wanted to do that, the people that did make that choice, not all, but a lot of the time, feel kind of offended or make comments like, well, it's not for everybody. And even in that condescending way of like, I've never said to somebody, if you choose to have a child, you're never going to know what real freedom is.

Carrie McNulty (05:00.954)

Right. And also I don't care. Have your kids, you know, but yeah. So that's kind of the topic. And I want to hear your perspective on maybe why that's hard for people when it doesn't really matter what the decision is, if it's outside of the social norm, but in this particular instance, because it's kind of all over the news right now, the value of a childless woman and how that value is going down and dwindling before our eyes. So.

Courtney L Alesandro (05:01.543)

Guess that would be rude.

Courtney L Alesandro (05:29.015)

Yes,

Courtney L Alesandro (05:30.66)

the value of a childless woman is the same as the value of a post -menopausal woman, right?

Carrie McNulty (05:37.356)

Ugh, yeah, Stock is dropping.

Courtney L Alesandro (05:45.822)

But to that point, and I know this isn't the topic, there's a beautiful invisibility in being post -menopausal that affords you the ability to be subversive. So I do enjoy that aspect of it.

Carrie McNulty (05:46.894)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (05:52.025)

Mmm.

Carrie McNulty (05:58.808)

Yes, you right.

Carrie McNulty (06:00.887)

You can move through society like a, you know,

Carrie McNulty (06:04.189)

a ghost. Yes. A ghost ninja who could do things that people don't ever suspect you of doing. So that, that part is nice, but the idea that our worth as women is tied to whether or not we want to nurture and mother has always been something that grinds my gears, if you will, you know, cause you know, we're just people who have value intrinsically as being people. And it's not, if we choose

Courtney L Alesandro (06:04.299)

Ninja

Courtney L Alesandro (06:13.529)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (06:18.915)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (06:28.644)

to do this one thing in our life, whether or not that gives us value or worth.

Courtney L Alesandro (06:33.526)

Absolutely,

Courtney L Alesandro (06:40.589)

It's been some time since I've, since people have engaged me in conversations about me wanting children. And so I was, when I knew we were going to have this conversation, I was just thinking back to the time in my life when people did find it unusual. Then, and my whole reason for not having children is very visceral. Somehow I knew

Carrie McNulty (06:42.271)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (06:48.526)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (06:59.502)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (07:05.646)

Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (07:09.829)

deep within me that it would not be a healthy thing for me to have children. Which I find interesting in so much that, you know, it took me another 40 years to get to know myself. But somehow as a teenager, starting in my teen years, I knew that this was not going to be a healthy thing for me. And if we're looking at family systems,

Carrie McNulty (07:22.444)

you

Courtney L Alesandro (07:35.129)

I found out in my early adulthood that my grandmother who had some mental health issues, these mental health issues were really brought on by her first pregnancy. So that sort of resonated with me. But I think the one memory I have ingrained in me is the message, when you find the right man, you will want to have a baby.

Carrie McNulty (07:46.969)

Hmm.

Carrie McNulty (07:49.604)

Courtney L Alesandro (08:04.495)

Although, you know, at the time I, you know, I was, I probably was more angry than I am now, but, so I didn't have the words for it, but you know, in hindsight, it's really centering men to a decision about your body and your choices, right? So somehow, you know, the magic.

Carrie McNulty (08:12.58)

Carrie McNulty (08:20.42)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (08:26.862)

Yeah, the whole rest of your life. Yeah, yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (08:33.897)

of a good man would make me want to, and again, in my experience, this was just my experience, the magic of a good man would make me want to risk my health. And that never sat right with me. So that was always very problematic. Now I'm of an age where people assume that I don't have children because I couldn't.

Carrie McNulty (08:35.716)

Thank you.

Carrie McNulty (08:41.998)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (08:50.863)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (09:02.926)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (09:03.595)

And.

Carrie McNulty (09:05.508)

Do you feel the need to correct them if they make that assumption?

Carrie McNulty (09:09.335)

What mood you're in if you're feeling sassy or not.

Courtney L Alesandro (09:09.445)

It depends. depends. Yeah, but

Courtney L Alesandro (09:13.309)

well, but I don't think people realize and especially in this conversation that's so sort of topical and political and meme worthy and all that. Like, you know, depending on what people say, it could be very intimate questions that they may not realize they're asking. So, so if

Carrie McNulty (09:22.904)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (09:31.586)

You

Courtney L Alesandro (09:38.521)

people do ask things, you know, that question my fertility or something where I'm like, my God, that is none of your business. do because I'm a mean person. just enjoy saying something graphic or something, right? Like if you're gonna...

Carrie McNulty (09:56.451)

You

Carrie McNulty (10:01.027)

I enjoy saying something graphic.

Courtney L Alesandro (10:05.135)

question my fertility, let's talk about my fertility and I'm gonna make you really uncomfortable really quickly. Like just to sort of highlight, hey, you brought on this topic. I was just minding my own business. Now you wanna talk about my vagina. So we're gonna talk about my vagina. Yeah, we're doing it. Sure. But more to I think your point, like.

Carrie McNulty (10:07.79)

Let's get into it.

Carrie McNulty (10:17.505)

All right.

Carrie McNulty (10:20.696)

Yeah, we're to go knee deep into this topic, whether you want to or not.

Courtney L Alesandro (10:36.727)

Yeah, what is the worth, inherent worth of a woman?

Carrie McNulty (10:41.39)

Yes. As a person on her own, people, and I know this topic has been brought up a lot, but people don't question men when they opt not to parent, or when they leave a family, or when they, you know what I mean? People don't really question that because it is the social norm for them. It's not the expectation. We're supposed to want to do this. And I can say wholeheartedly that never.

Courtney L Alesandro (10:44.825)

Person on her own.

Courtney L Alesandro (10:52.527)

you

Carrie McNulty (11:04.514)

I don't even think from the time I was born will say, is that something that I wanted? My mom would buy me all these baby dolls. I wouldn't touch them. I wanted nothing to do with them. I only wanted to play with stuffed animals. Right? Weird, right? I still would much just prefer to hang out with dogs or cats, right? Like it just, it's not, it's just not something I ever had inside of me. And thankfully I grew up with a mother who, for, you know, some of the things that maybe she didn't get right, the things that she did get right,

Courtney L Alesandro (11:14.865)

I was a stuffed animal girl too!

Carrie McNulty (11:30.67)

were helping to build my confidence and letting me make my own decisions about things without guilt trips. She never was like, you need to give me a grandchild. She was always like, hey, Carrie, if you don't want to have kids, that's great. You do what you want to do with your life. This is the life that you have to live. And thankfully, because I didn't ever want to, I didn't. Even my Barbies had very adult themes when I played with them. And that was just a lot of soap opera watching that I did with my grandmother and my aunt.

Courtney L Alesandro (11:51.599)

You

Carrie McNulty (11:56.172)

But it just never occurred to me. don't have that in me. And thankfully, I never felt weird about it. But I know there are a lot of women that do feel shamed or odd or different because it's not a part of them. And I guess I'm speaking to that audience. If it makes it to those people, you don't have to want to mother or nurture anything if you don't want to. I think I told you about a few years back, and it's stuck with me because again, it grinds my gears,

Carrie McNulty (12:20.455)

where I posted this meme on Facebook that was like, hey, if you're a, you know.

Courtney L Alesandro (12:20.565)

You

Carrie McNulty (12:26.274)

If you choose not to nurture or to mother in any way, that's okay. You don't have to feel bad about that. That is an okay decision to make. And somebody who had recently had a baby made a comment, well, you sure do mother the hell out of your dogs. And yes, I do. It's weird and I do, you know? One wears a diaper because he has back issues. I do. It's more mothering than I ever cared to do in my life. But it's my dog and I love him. I wasn't talking about my choice. I was speaking to somebody who might be making a choice or has never felt that they need to nurture anything.

Courtney L Alesandro (12:41.476)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (12:55.458)

especially as a woman, because that is so much of what our value is wrapped up in. I read you that quote that's going around, or that meme that's going around by Tracy Ellis Ross. It's like, childless women have been mothering the world and elevating culture as aunties, godmothers, teachers. You do not need to push out a baby to help push humanity forward. And I get where she's coming from and why there's this need to explain why we're worthwhile people. I want to take it a step further and say,

Courtney L Alesandro (13:19.429)

Sure.

Carrie McNulty (13:23.97)

You don't have to be a godmother and auntie or a teacher. You are worthy of being treated as a human being that can elevate society and move it forward if you choose to do none of those things. It doesn't have to be qualified like that. It just doesn't have to be.

Courtney L Alesandro (13:37.104)

Absolutely.

Courtney L Alesandro (13:43.181)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (13:47.385)

Well, I think, gosh, I think there's so many layers to this, right? There's the angle of paying more attention to somebody else's intimate life and personal choices than you were invited in to participate in those conversations. And I I wonder what motivates that.

Carrie McNulty (13:51.726)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (14:03.193)

Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (14:16.729)

Right? What motivates people to invest their time and their energy into thinking about somebody else's vagina, right? And ovaries, like why?

Carrie McNulty (14:28.994)

And uterus, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carrie McNulty (14:33.377)

How does it hurt you if I don't choose to do that? The whole idea of it being selfish is always a curiosity to me too, because were you gonna help me raise this child? Did you have a stake in it? Were you really involved in some way that I'm not aware of?

Courtney L Alesandro (14:47.505)

any and you know conversely the the selfish angle is is very interesting to me because like like I know I would be a terrible mother so I think it's anything but selfish to have spared anybody from the need

Carrie McNulty (14:57.294)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (15:03.482)

No, it's a very good thing. Having both of

Carrie McNulty (15:07.832)

us having worked in mental health for as many years as we have, it is not the selfish choice

Carrie McNulty (15:12.587)

to choose not to choose something you know you would not be good at and that you don't have any desire to do is not selfish.

Courtney L Alesandro (15:12.697)

I'd be bad at it.

Courtney L Alesandro (15:21.689)

But then why are people interested and spend energy thinking about somebody else's and those somebody else are women. know, nobody's going around thinking why, why is he a childless man? You know, the onus then could probably go on to his partner, if it's a female partner.

Carrie McNulty (15:34.999)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (15:38.606)

Why is he a childless man? Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (15:46.006)

Mm -hmm, right.

Carrie McNulty (15:47.644)

I've had that experience, yes, where people have said, a wonderful husband my, or what a wonderful father my husband would make and isn't ashamed that he didn't get the chance to do it.

Courtney L Alesandro (15:57.437)

Like, it's so...

Courtney L Alesandro (16:02.475)

And spending that energy is exactly that. It's energy. Like, why would you spend time thinking about it? And so my thought process in this is...

Carrie McNulty (16:08.495)

Carrie McNulty (16:12.751)

Courtney L Alesandro (16:16.953)

there has to be some level of self -reflection that our existence is forcing upon people. And by our existence, I don't mean it like we're like, this center, but like childless women, okay, like.

Carrie McNulty (16:25.173)

Mm -hmm. Yes, yes.

Carrie McNulty (16:29.144)

the center of their, Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (16:33.02)

Yeah. To me, I think it's the social norm thing. The making the choice outside of that makes people question their own decisions or feel judged for their decisions when it's not about that at all. What I choose to do or not do with my body doesn't impact anybody else. That would be a decision between me and me. It doesn't like.

Courtney L Alesandro (16:37.391)

Courtney L Alesandro (16:50.157)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (16:52.184)

Right.

Carrie McNulty (16:52.792)

And yes, I am married. And I will say straight up, John is a much more nurturing person than I could ever hope to be. Thank goodness. The woman that raised him was incredibly nurturing. She's wonderful. And he got more of that influence than any other influence, which is fantastic. I am not that. That is not me. Right. And so when people say that it makes me laugh internally because it's like you, you don't, you don't know our dynamic yet. You don't know. You think you.

Courtney L Alesandro (17:07.332)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (17:17.829)

would be bad.

Carrie McNulty (17:21.794)

It could, listen, do I think I could do anything that I wanted to do besides math? Yes, I do. I think I could. It doesn't mean I want to. And I know me well enough to know that if I don't want to do something, I don't freaking do it. I just don't do it. And you're right. Why does it matter? Why is so much energy being put into a decision that somebody makes that really doesn't impact another person outside of the situation at all?

Courtney L Alesandro (17:45.113)

Yeah, kind of along those lines. And I just think this is interesting because I've had a couple of conversations with colleagues. I, you know, I work in a hospital and we have a labor and delivery unit. So quite often there is a new family, brand new baby in

Carrie McNulty (17:56.184)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (18:08.101)

the elevator leaving the hospital. And

Carrie McNulty (18:08.111)

Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (18:12.843)

I will acknowledge it and I will acknowledge that this is, you know, a new human and, you know, I'll say something, but I will never say like to them, what a, you know, what a blessing, what a great thing. Congratulations, because you don't know. You don't know if this is a baby that they don't have the financial means to, to,

Carrie McNulty (18:27.779)

Carrie McNulty (18:31.748)

Nope.

Carrie McNulty (18:39.129)

you

Courtney L Alesandro (18:41.701)

care for if the relationship they're in is healthy. There's just so much about people's private business. You just don't know. And when I've pointed this out to colleagues, it's generally looked at as me being a curmudgeon. Again, I think it all kind of goes back to minding your own business and not making assumptions. Life is complicated. Life is hard.

Carrie McNulty (18:45.198)

Yes, many. Yes.

Carrie McNulty (19:06.756)

Yeah. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (19:10.392)

Yes, there's much more nuance to people's day to day lives than we tend to because well, so here's the thing that's also interesting to me is always looking at everything from your own perspective. I thought that was something we were supposed to grow out of when we were like eight, but it seems to happen a lot too, where it's like, well, if that wasn't my experience, I don't understand how it could be your experience. And if I look at as a baby as a blessing, no matter what, and you don't see it that way, then again, there must be something wrong with you when really you're not saying that it.

Courtney L Alesandro (19:28.815)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (19:37.366)

You're saying, don't know if it is or not. So I'm gonna operate with letting that person guide that, right? It's the same as if, you know, a client or somebody else in my life says that they are pregnant. And again, I'm in my mid 40s, so I don't hear that a lot in my friend group anymore. when somebody does, I always say, how do we feel about that? You know, like you tell me what, I will be whatever you need me to be in that moment, but I'm not gonna assume anything until you...

Courtney L Alesandro (19:51.865)

you

Courtney L Alesandro (19:56.75)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (20:05.796)

Like, how do you feel about it? Are you, you know, and then from there, if you're excited, then we're excited. If you're not, then we're not, you know, like it seems simple, but I think it's, well, it's one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast, right? Is that we need to start looking at things from other people's perspectives, you know, because how else are we gonna build?

Courtney L Alesandro (20:25.637)

Absolutely.

Carrie McNulty (20:28.908)

A greater sense. I mean, we're getting further and further away of being empathetic and understanding of each other and looking at people as real actual humans. So I can do my little part of like, let's think that if somebody else's experience isn't our experience, that it's still a valid one.

Courtney L Alesandro (20:44.577)

You know, and this is making me think about connection, right? Like, can we connect with people? And I know this is a tangent, but here we go, here we go. Stay with me. It's gonna be, we're gonna have highs, we're gonna have lows. It's gonna rock your world. Might make you a little nauseous.

Carrie McNulty (20:48.228)

Carrie McNulty (20:55.244)

go for it. Take me. Take me on your tangent. Full circle.

Courtney L Alesandro (21:07.536)

No, but.

Carrie McNulty (21:07.546)

Ooh.

Courtney L Alesandro (21:11.761)

to your point of, you know, we're judging people, we're assuming things, we're placing our narratives on other people. In order for that to happen, you cannot be experiencing a connection with this person because you have

Carrie McNulty (21:22.797)

Carrie McNulty (21:27.236)

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (21:36.055)

Courtney L Alesandro (21:40.205)

You have invested your narrative in them. This person is just a reflection of a storyline that you want. So you are not seeing this person in front of you. And can these conversations, and I know it's been very much in the political sphere.

Carrie McNulty (21:48.601)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (22:04.193)

Carrie McNulty (22:04.316)

-hmm

Courtney L Alesandro (22:07.533)

which can escalate people and escalate conversation or comments, can we bring it back to connection? Can we bring it back to saying, look at this person in front of you, be with this person in front of you, and just approach it that way.

Carrie McNulty (22:16.046)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (22:25.039)

Yeah. They

Carrie McNulty (22:26.181)

have a whole life full of stories. They have a whole life full of experiences that may not be the same as yours. That doesn't mean, again, that they're any less valid or less interesting. it's like slowing down to take the time. Obviously, you're not going to be like, hey, person on the elevator with your new baby, how do you feel about this? Let's make a real connection. And you're probably going to do that because that's

Courtney L Alesandro (22:48.179)

Right.

Courtney L Alesandro (22:50.841)

That's weird.

Carrie McNulty (22:51.046)

a little

Carrie McNulty (22:51.542)

weird. That's again, intrusive and weird in another way. And also they're probably like hitting the alarm button to get off of the elevator as quickly as they can. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. You just experienced some, some wild thing that's just happened to your body. You don't need me interrogating you. Yeah. Yeah. But just starting from the framework of let that person lead with their own emotions and experiences instead of me needing to.

Courtney L Alesandro (22:57.475)

Yeah. And there are hormones. There are hormones everywhere. Like you're not going to freak somebody out.

Courtney L Alesandro (23:07.981)

Yeah, being weird on you.

Carrie McNulty (23:20.3)

assume or fill in the blanks or you must feel this way about that. Why don't you just ask how do you feel about it? Instead of being like, well, you must be elated. This must be the most one, you know, and hopefully, hopefully it is we hope anybody who's doing this is in as healthy of position as they can be in that they have a supportive partner. That's the hope. And I guess that's the other thing that takes me back to. And I guess, you know, I would hope that many people when their friends tell them good news that they are excited about.

Courtney L Alesandro (23:26.393)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (23:36.709)

Absolutely.

Carrie McNulty (23:48.846)

feel that way for them. And that if you're a person in a friend group who's opted not to parent or mother or whatever, that your friends would be cool with that too. know, hopefully you're surrounded by people who are supportive of your choice. We can take it a step further out, like if it's a ring, you know, you have your own little friend group and a step further out as maybe your family and then a step further out as, you know, other people, coworkers, whatever, and then random people on the elevator or whatever. Like if we just take the assumption...

Carrie McNulty (24:17.304)

If we, it always comes back to being curious for me. It's better to be curious than it is to assume, right? Because people will tell you the answer if you want to listen. And as long as your questions aren't like, tell me about your uterus and why you opted not to use it. I mean, come on, let's.

Courtney L Alesandro (24:20.089)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (24:23.3)

Courtney L Alesandro (24:30.446)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (24:33.145)

Right, but when people start getting into certain questions that they think is appropriate, like, you know, why did you opt not to have children? I think the last time somebody had said something to me about children,

Carrie McNulty (24:45.367)

Courtney L Alesandro (24:55.543)

It was a professional setting and I was commenting that, I don't have children. And this person started to discuss their adult children's struggles with IVF. And I immediately just said, you know, this wasn't a decision I, you know, couldn't make. I said, I chose not to have children. And it can't

Carrie McNulty (25:07.927)

Hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (25:22.263)

you know, bringing the conversation to a screeching halt. But like if you're gonna go there and now I'm intimate to things that maybe your children don't want me to know, like I'm gonna have to put the stop to this. But I agree with you. think there's...

Carrie McNulty (25:32.249)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (25:40.901)

There's just a lack of, not a lack of curiosity, but I think people don't lean into their curiosity. Like I think everyone's curious, obviously.

Courtney L Alesandro (25:55.319)

about other people, know, and choices. It just goes through a few filters that maybe we're starting to be conditioned to have. That is kind of sad to me.

Carrie McNulty (25:56.505)

Carrie McNulty (26:05.87)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (26:08.804)

Well, yeah. Yeah. I think the expectation, again, is that at the baseline, this is something we all want. And if you weren't able to do it, weren't able to do it, then we want to hear why. Rather than it being like, it does bring the conversation to a screeching halt. I've had experiences where people have asked me, do you have children? And I say, no. And they say, well, why not? And I say, because I don't want them. I could say, I had cancer.

Courtney L Alesandro (26:19.813)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (26:35.306)

There's a part of me that thinks, I come up with a flowery answer to make people more comfortable? But I think as I get older, the more and more I'm like, I don't need to do that. I never wanted that. And then I get looked at sometimes like, OK, and other times like I'm a leper. What do mean you didn't want that?

Courtney L Alesandro (26:52.711)

Right. the

Courtney L Alesandro (26:55.553)

other aspect of like, are we losing our curiosity?

Courtney L Alesandro (27:04.185)

Are we getting lazy in our thought process? Because there tends to be a leap of assumption from, you know, I don't want to have children to I hate all children. Like, I don't, like I'm anti -baby. I don't think they're cute at all. Cute little baby toes do nothing to me. Like of course, exactly. Like I'm very like, I think.

Carrie McNulty (27:17.868)

Yes, yes, I don't have to hate them. Yeah, my heart's made of stone. Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (27:33.593)

babies are cute, you know, and I think it's an easy binary to get stuck into. To say, well, if you don't have children, A, you hate children and B, you hate my choices. When meanwhile, I'm just thinking about around shiny object, right? Like, there's no train of thought that takes me down to

Carrie McNulty (27:34.585)

Sure.

Carrie McNulty (27:40.334)

Yes, yes.

Carrie McNulty (27:48.376)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (27:52.418)

Yes, yes, thank you for. Right.

Carrie McNulty (28:01.391)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (28:03.881)

you know what another person has chosen to do with their lives i'm you know thinking about a sandwich or something so

Carrie McNulty (28:10.534)

Right. I'm usually thinking about what I'm going have for dinner. am not thinking about, know, but thank you for bringing it back to this idea that if you choose something different, people do make the assumption that it is because you don't like, you hate kids or you don't like them or you, and I don't, I don't, I don't prefer to babysit. I don't prefer that's not, you know, my nervous system doesn't like that. So I tend to not do things that my nervous system doesn't like, but I think kids are adorable.

Courtney L Alesandro (28:13.165)

Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (28:22.776)

you

Courtney L Alesandro (28:33.273)

You

Carrie McNulty (28:37.272)

I think they say funny things. think, you know, it's fantastic, right? Like it's just not for me, but taking it back to the decision of, or the thought of I'm judging them. Like they better judge me first almost, you know, like, well, I know she must be judging me because I've decided to have children and I'm not. don't, like I said at the beginning, you have as many as you want that you can take care of and love and do what you need for. And if that's what your world is, then that's amazing. I've never begrudged anybody that if that's been their

Courtney L Alesandro (28:43.749)

for me.

Courtney L Alesandro (29:03.589)

Okay.

Carrie McNulty (29:07.168)

desire you know it's just odd that it gets switched in people's mind that if you opt not to do that then you have a problem with their decision maybe because they have a problem with mine

Courtney L Alesandro (29:21.379)

Maybe they have a problem with yours. Maybe this is again, we're two people who don't have children. So but my.

Carrie McNulty (29:28.568)

Right. Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (29:33.259)

If there's a natural assumption that if you don't want something, it is because you hate it. So it's all or nothing. You either make baby stew or you want babies. I can imagine for people who have chosen to have children, that choice is very complicated.

Carrie McNulty (29:39.834)

All or nothing. There's no gray.

Carrie McNulty (29:48.019)

You

Carrie McNulty (30:01.423)

Courtney L Alesandro (30:02.249)

And I am sure there are great joys, but I am also sure there are great pains

Courtney L Alesandro (30:08.676)

associated with it.

Carrie McNulty (30:08.686)

Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (30:16.129)

what maybe the existence of the childless cat ladies can also do is point out that dissonance by just existing. We're not pointing anything just by existing. There's a dissonance of, yes, I've had kids and yes, I love them and yes, I would protect them with my life and

Courtney L Alesandro (30:41.669)

I imagine nothing more than having these children in my life, 100%. But it's not 100 % all good, all easy. And there has to be seeds of doubt. And those I imagine would be very frightening to confront.

Carrie McNulty (30:50.586)

Sure.

Carrie McNulty (30:54.616)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (30:59.832)

Right, yeah, it's putting a mirror up in a way that you, it's seeing a path that you didn't choose, right? And on hard days, maybe that's a hard path to see, you know? How much do you think that, how do I wanna word this?

Courtney L Alesandro (31:10.659)

Yeah, I could imagine.

Carrie McNulty (31:19.662)

How much do you think that patriarchy comes into play with that decision? And what's going on? know, obviously disclaimer, Courtney and I are not political analysts. We're not, we're just people that have thoughts and opinions, right? And we're speaking from our own thoughts and experiences and opinions, but no, that's not part of my CV or resume, but I'm just curious how much you think that plays a part with the political

Courtney L Alesandro (31:33.855)

Yeah, Sophisticated political analysis coming from both of us.

Carrie McNulty (31:49.894)

That's something that Kamala Harris could be attacked for right now, right? That this is one thing, a decision that she's made that we can attack. And how much do we think the idea, how much of a threat do you think it is to men when women make that decision? Not to all men, but to men, yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (32:06.169)

I think it's a huge, not to all med, right,

Courtney L Alesandro (32:09.054)

right. I think it's huge. think society is changing over time and.

Carrie McNulty (32:15.62)

Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (32:20.109)

with that the natural order or not the natural order the the previous order of things the people who benefited which were men by and large.

Carrie McNulty (32:25.388)

Yes, yes, yes.

Carrie McNulty (32:30.904)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (32:37.845)

If there's a loss of footing there, And people, women are choosing not to have children. I guess kind of back to what we were just talking about, it forces a re -examination of yourself. And that's hard. And especially if, you know,

Carrie McNulty (32:41.923)

Carrie McNulty (32:52.91)

you

Carrie McNulty (32:57.807)

Courtney L Alesandro (33:05.861)

Your dad, your daddy's dad, your daddy's dad's daddy,

Courtney L Alesandro (33:08.676)

like all benefited very greatly from patriarchy. And now your partner or your pool of partners are saying, if you want to have children with me, I expect you to do 50 % of the housework as well. I expect you to do 50 % of the act of parenting.

Carrie McNulty (33:08.686)

You

Carrie McNulty (33:17.785)

Carrie McNulty (33:27.619)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (33:33.784)

Carrie McNulty (33:33.891)

-hmm.

Courtney L Alesandro (33:35.961)

you know, that's not easy. And so I think it's sort of natural to bristle to try and defend a status that was really beneficial to you. I mean...

Carrie McNulty (33:37.336)

No.

Carrie McNulty (33:42.916)

fight against that change.

Carrie McNulty (33:50.146)

Yeah,

Carrie McNulty (33:51.202)

man, yeah. For generations, right? I mean, I don't think it was always that way. I think that at one point, women's value was something different in society, and even as it relates to religion. But I think, well, that's a whole other topic, really. I don't want to open that can of worms. Well, think, well, I'll just keep my thoughts to myself. But anyway, that's not where we're going with this. But there's...

Courtney L Alesandro (34:08.106)

You know, was gonna say, I don't know, women haven't really been valued.

Courtney L Alesandro (34:15.394)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (34:19.246)

There's more to say, obviously, and do your own research. anyway, it's just we're living in a time of transition and change, and people don't like change. And that's very hard. There's so many things that are going on in the world that we could choose not to look at. if we end up with a woman president, that will definitely change things to some degree. But I think it also makes the people who are very hesitant for change or fearful of change double down.

Courtney L Alesandro (34:22.323)

you

Courtney L Alesandro (34:29.201)

Right.

Carrie McNulty (34:45.526)

on their positions even more. So I can only anticipate that we will see more, you know, not so nice comments and whatever, memes, whatever, about women who make the choice that you and I have made. And we made this totally separate from anything political years ago before this, you know, but it's, I just, you know, it's another reason to feel vulnerable as a woman in society when we have so many reasons already to feel vulnerable.

Courtney L Alesandro (34:47.662)

Absolutely.

Courtney L Alesandro (35:12.975)

Yeah, and.

Courtney L Alesandro (35:17.763)

I guess in our elderhood, becoming these old ladies.

Courtney L Alesandro (35:30.426)

there's an opportunity for us to to live by example. Be like, no, it's actually here is a path here is you're not going to be a a shut in your unless you want to be and I'm kind of a shut in by choice.

Carrie McNulty (35:53.784)

I don't

Carrie McNulty (35:54.128)

dislike the idea of it.

Courtney L Alesandro (35:54.883)

has nothing to do with my desire to reproduce.

Courtney L Alesandro (35:57.182)

It has to do with my anti -social behavior. No.

Carrie McNulty (36:00.791)

Right, yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (36:05.497)

But if we do get a female president, then that opens up options. And if there's a larger pool, because there's always been women who haven't had children. I'm thinking back to my great aunt Alice. So I did have a bit of a role model. My great aunt Alice never had children and lived a very

Carrie McNulty (36:11.332)

Carrie McNulty (36:22.97)

Sure, sure.

Carrie McNulty (36:29.752)

Courtney L Alesandro (36:36.318)

full life. But if there's more and more of us, then the message can be seen like, this is a path. This is a path. It's got its highs, its lows like anybody else's path. But it's an option available.

Carrie McNulty (36:41.08)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (36:50.872)

Mm -hmm. Sure. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (36:56.046)

Right, and you don't have to feel less than as a human if that is the path that you choose.

Courtney L Alesandro (37:03.311)

That would make me so sad for people to feel less than in because they chose not to or couldn't have children.

Carrie McNulty (37:12.547)

Right. Well, and yes, to clarify, our whole thing today is not about people who would have wanted to parent and couldn't. That's not. This is specifically about people who make the choice that they don't want to. mother, in particular, that that was their choice, not that they couldn't. That's a whole other thing. And I can't imagine how devastating that is. And that's not what we're speaking about. We're talking about the

Courtney L Alesandro (37:20.097)

Absolutely.

Carrie McNulty (37:36.512)

definitive choice and knowing that that wasn't a path that was meant for you and that you if that is your experience that you aren't flawed because you don't have that internal drive to mother that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you as a human that doesn't mean you're missing something you should have been born with it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean anything other than that you are a human who is just as worthy as any other human on this planet and can still drive and move society forward and evolve without having that

Carrie McNulty (38:06.168)

piece or that part. It's entirely, you know, we don't need to qualify it. As I said, you know, with the, well, you could be an aunt or you could be a teacher or you could be a therapist like I am, or you could be a nurse or you could be these are, it's, you're just worthwhile enough as a human being. You don't need to.

Courtney L Alesandro (38:22.213)

Great.

Courtney L Alesandro (38:25.411)

You could work a backhoe.

Carrie McNulty (38:27.104)

Right, you could do any job and still be a worthwhile human being that didn't mother.

Courtney L Alesandro (38:29.444)

I need to.

Courtney L Alesandro (38:34.287)

that didn't mother, didn't, that made a choice to put energy elsewhere.

Carrie McNulty (38:40.696)

Mm -hmm. Yes, right on. Is there any other thing that you think we missed on this that you want to bring up?

Courtney L Alesandro (38:51.755)

No, I think what I would like to just re -highlight is

Courtney L Alesandro (39:03.307)

is if people find it off putting that somebody wouldn't have a child for whatever reason and you're in a situation where that you know is the topic of conversation because somebody else made it the topic of conversation I would encourage you to like I think this is a theme from all of our topics take a take a pause and examine

Carrie McNulty (39:08.302)

Mm -hmm.

Carrie McNulty (39:31.578)

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (39:32.253)

Yes. Yeah.

Courtney L Alesandro (39:33.272)

Why does why am I having this visceral reaction to this person's choice? And I think that would send you down a much more interesting path than the outcome of a conversation about somebody else's, you know, reproductive choices. So to take that moment and say,

Carrie McNulty (39:37.474)

Yeah, yeah, what's coming up for me?

Carrie McNulty (39:46.811)

Carrie McNulty (39:56.143)

Courtney L Alesandro (40:00.545)

gosh, I really don't like the choice this person is making. Okay, cool.

Carrie McNulty (40:03.746)

Yeah,

Carrie McNulty (40:04.836)

what's going on with me that I feel this way? And that's not an easy thing to do. And again, I know that sounds like a very therapist thing that we're suggesting that you're like, take a pause and really internally examine yourself. That's not going to be for everybody. But there is the option of the very first episode that I talked about where you could just simply say nothing at all. That's an option too. Because if you.

Courtney L Alesandro (40:07.075)

Yeah, cool.

Courtney L Alesandro (40:24.005)

Say nothing at all.

Carrie McNulty (40:27.362)

If your aim isn't to offend somebody or hurt somebody or to challenge their whole life existence, then that's also an option, you know, to just be like, and again, for women, don't want to speak for you, but Courtney, for women like you and I who are in a place in our life where I am less bothered by what somebody's opinion is of my choices. It's easy to sit in this position of this place of privilege in my life where I have the freedom to make these choices. I've always been supported in those choices by my family and my partner.

Carrie McNulty (40:57.206)

I guess we're speaking to people who may be in their twenties or younger or thirties or whatever, right? And maybe they don't have as a supportive of environment and making that choice. And maybe they are more impacted by somebody's view of their decisions. That's who this is for. You're worthy and worthwhile. If this is the choice you make, regardless of how other people in your life might feel about it. And they won't always get curious about their own reaction. They might say something that's hurtful, but that doesn't mean that you are less of a person because they don't understand your choice.

Courtney L Alesandro (41:25.847)

that's lovely. I hope that made an impact on somebody somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's not saying anything, just observing your, you don't have to deep dive it, you know, your innermost workings, but just go, that just made me really angry. And then move on with putting your grocery bags in your car.

Carrie McNulty (41:28.548)

So.

Carrie McNulty (41:31.704)

I hope so too. I don't know.

Carrie McNulty (41:48.548)

Yeah. Ooh.

Carrie McNulty (41:54.464)

Or hitting that elevator button.

Courtney L Alesandro (41:56.591)

hitting the elevator

Courtney L Alesandro (41:57.47)

button. Exactly.

Carrie McNulty (42:00.898)

Well, as always, I love having you on and I can't say it won't happen again because...

Courtney L Alesandro (42:05.771)

you know I can talk about almost anything.

Carrie McNulty (42:08.684)

As can I, and I don't know, I don't want to speak for the people listening, but I think real magic happens.

Courtney L Alesandro (42:14.373)

You

Courtney L Alesandro (42:17.177)

Maybe we could do an episode where we're out and about on the town doing an activity.

Carrie McNulty (42:21.446)

Ooh.

Carrie McNulty (42:23.177)

Knowing us, what would that, well, I don't know what that activity would be. Yeah. Paint by numbers. Buying tap shoes and never using them. Yeah, who knows? You never know. All right, everybody. Well, I believe that is it for this episode. And

Courtney L Alesandro (42:27.395)

Who knows what that would be?

Carrie McNulty (42:43.34)

I think I'm working on having somebody come on that has long COVID so they can share what their experience is like. So I'm trying to get that in the works. And then we'll have October, which is, of course, Breast Cancer Awareness Month. So I'm hoping that I can get some of my breast cancer friends to maybe come on and tell their story. And let's see. And then beyond that, who knows? It's a real mystery even to me. So we'll figure that out as we go along. But until then, I will chat with you all in a couple of weeks. And Courtney, thank you for being here again, as always.

Courtney L Alesandro (43:12.919)

Always fun solving world problems here. Thanks. Bye bye.

People on this episode

Carrie McNulty

Host