Carrie's Always Talking
The podcast all about stories and connection. Every other week there will be stories from people just like you, or perhaps it will be YOU! Stories are a part of the foundation of life, and they are one of the main ways we learn about one another. Hearing someone share their experience can be healing not only for the person sharing but also for those listening. You might laugh, you might cry, but you also might also learn that we're more alike than you think.
Carrie's Always Talking
When it Comes to Change, Actions Speak Louder Than Words with Dan Emigh Jr.
In Episode 1 Season 2 of Carrie's Always Talking, Carrie welcomes everyone back after a longer than expected break from the show. She expresses gratitude for her listeners and invites those enjoying the show to review and rate the podcast. During the intro, Carrie discusses the subject of change. She asks listeners to think about individuals in their lives who have talked a lot about changes they have made as people, but could not provide actual tangible evidence of said changes. She identifies that proof of real change is in what we can observe over time, Not in what we're told to believe.
Carrie welcomes her brother Dan to share a personal story from his workplace that leads to a broader discussion about change, personal growth, and the dynamics of relationships. They explore how past experiences shape current behaviors, the importance of self-awareness, and the impact of family upbringing on emotional responses. The conversation emphasizes the significance of genuine change over mere words and the value of connection in overcoming life's challenges. As always, there is some levity and laughter as well.
If you have a story you'd like to tell, send me an email at carrie.always.talking@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.
You can also find me on Bluesky- @carrie-is-talking.bsky.social
YouTube- @carrie-always-talking
Hello and welcome back to Carrie's Always Talking. I'm your host Carrie McNulty and this is the podcast all about stories and connections. I believe that when people share their stories with one another it's the main way that we build empathy and humanity and that's something I think we need a lot more of in the world today. Well we're back for season two. Today is episode one. I realized that I did promise that I would be back in the winter with new episodes but that didn't end up happening and I apologize.
I should have realized and remembered that I am somebody who very much hibernates in the winter and this winter was no exception. In fact, I think up until last month, I kind of felt encased in cement. So I'm happy to be back and having thoughts about what I want to do more with the show and getting involved. And that's been a good process of sort of waking up. But I am back. So anybody who has been listening and following along, as always, I appreciate you.
I'm happy to be here with you doing whatever it is that we're doing today as you're listening. And for anybody new, welcome. I'm always excited whenever I see that there's people from new places that are listening. And I as always appreciate all of you. If you're somebody who wants to come on and tell your story this season, know that one change I'm making is that you can do that anonymously should you choose. And all you would need to do is just reach out to my email and that is always in the show notes.
)
The other thing that's a little bit different is that I'm not probably going to be doing much with the Facebook page that I have. Instead, I have a Blue Sky account that's just sort of for me personally and also for the podcast. So you can find me there and I will put that in the show notes. And I'm also hoping to eventually be doing some video on YouTube. I'm continuing to learn. I'm just sort of a one person show here. So it's been fun to learn, but that is eventually the goal too. So hopefully you'll be able to find me there. And as soon as I have that up and going,
I'll also include that in the show notes. If you, yes, don't let me forget to ask this part. I'm so bad at this. Can you tell I'm 0 % salesperson? If you're listening and you like the podcast, if you would be willing to leave a review or ratings wherever you listen to the podcast, that would be helpful. And I'm pretty much on all platforms right now except for YouTube, which I'm working on. Today, I have a guest that I love.
very much and who is very dear to me. And I thought would be a really good first episode for the season. And that person is my brother. His name is Dan and Dan Emigh Jr. If I'm going to be technical about it. He and I obviously have known each other my whole life. And he called me a couple of weeks ago and told me a story and that story kind of stuck with me. And it really got me thinking about the concept of change.
and whether or not people can change. I think we get the message a lot of the time that that's not possible, that once somebody is a certain way, they're always that way. And I think if we all look at our life, if you've been around a while, we can think of times where people have come to us and said, I'm very different. I'm a totally different person now. I've changed. And they try to kind of sell you on that a little bit. Here are the ways that I'm different, but you don't really get to see it. They tell you.
and a red flag for me and just as a person living my life and as somebody who's been a therapist and has worked in mental health for ever, is that it's a similar experience as people having wanted somebody to change very much in their life, coming back around, whether it be a partner, spouse, parent, if there's a estrangement there, talking about how different they are and how they deserve another chance and how they are.
They've done their work and you won't believe the difference. And a lot of the time in those situations when somebody has to talk a lot about how they're different, they haven't really done the work that's involved in making the change. It's more talking about doing the work. And it's, think, a lot more impactful when you look back and you think, and I want you all to consider this too, is there somebody in your life that you can think of that you know is really very different because what you have observed?
And when I think about that, my brother is one of those people for me who he didn't have to try to sell me on the fact that he was different. I've been able to observe it over our lifetime together. our life is very different in terms of our relationship now than if you would have asked me 20 years ago. So whenever he called me and told me this story,
It was meaningful to me. And then I asked him, hey, would you be willing to come on and tell the story for everybody to hear and also to talk about what it's like to be somebody who has made some significant changes in your life? Because you know, you get to the point where you need to make those changes if you're going to have successful connections with people. And he was willing, which is awesome. And I can tell you that 20 years ago, Dan would not have been willing. He would have thought this was stupid.
So again, the proof is in the change, in the doing, right? The proof of the change is in the doing. And he's different because of I've seen him do. So I invite you to think about as we're listening to this together, you know, and as I'm going through this discussion, because I really like to have my interviews quote unquote, be more discussion based and more conversational. And you'll see there's a lot of ease with my brother because of course I've known him my whole life. So yeah, there is.
But I want you to think about as you're listening, is there somebody in your life that you know that there's an observable change that's made things better in your relationship? Or are there people in your life who talk a lot about having changed, and maybe they haven't changed at all? And maybe they're just trying to sell you. So that's something to think about. And if this topic is of interest to you and you're like, hey, I also have a story, reach out. I always want to hear. All right, so I'm going to go ahead and get us started on this. discussion and I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed doing it.
Carrie McNulty (00:00)
Hi Dan.
Dan (00:02)
Hi, how are you?
Carrie McNulty (00:03)
I'm doing okay today, how about you? Good. This is the first time, well, I've had one other family member come on, but this is the first time I've had my brother come on and talk to you all, so.
Dan (00:05)
Pretty good.
Hi, let's get it going, let's get started. Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (00:20)
Hi, yeah, this is exciting. Yeah,
yeah, he's pretty pumped to do this, as you can tell. He's raring to go. So Dan gave me a call a couple weeks ago. And if you know my brother, know, he doesn't really love to talk on the phone much. So it used to be when he would call right away, I would have this visceral reaction of, no, what happened? But these days when he calls, it's usually just for whatever, for fun. And he had a story that he wanted to tell me about something that happened at work.
And I got to thinking about that story a few days. I was thinking about it for a while after he told me. And I thought, wouldn't like it if he was willing to come on and tell this story to all of you. So Dan, what happened at work a couple of weeks ago?
Dan (00:59)
so I'll try to tell this story as vague as possible because obviously I'd like to keep my job.
Carrie McNulty (01:04)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, please do that. Yeah.
Dan (01:11)
And
I'm sure that there's some amenity that's expected with this story. But anyways, so I had a, a gentleman that was close to retirement that worked for me. And he had been with the place of employment for over 40 years.
Usually we had a pretty good relationship, but he was always even since I started there eight years ago was always like Kind of in the mindset that he was going to tell me what he was willing to do and what he wasn't willing to do and that sort of thing Well, I had been trying to train a backfill for his normal job duties because
Carrie McNulty (01:58)
because he was going to retire.
Dan (01:59)
He's obviously going to retire. So I'm
trying to prep for that. I actually, as a courtesy, you know, pulled him aside at one point and said, Hey, this is my plans. I'm going to move you to this other area. so that this person that you recently trained can, learn your, your job duties. And it's kind of tough to do it if you're always sitting right over their shoulder. So he was fine.
cool with it and everything. So we're about three weeks into that scenario and apparently it was eating at him and I didn't know it. The week before that he had gone to my boss and said something to my boss about it. And my boss basically told him that, you know, we have this going on in other areas too. We don't have a lot of turnover at our site. So,
We have a lot of these people that have been there for 40 years or what have you. And, we're trying to spread that knowledge before they're gone. so, he told him that and then my boss didn't think anything of it. He thought, okay, he's fine with it. He understands and that's it. Well, I guess it has been eating at the guy for a few weeks and he never said anything to me, to me about it or whatever.
We had a scenario where there's like a dividing wall in between two areas of our warehouse. And I was actually on the other side from where this gentleman was working. And I was talking to the receiving group about a pallet that came in that was damaged and what to do in that scenario, telling them that we don't have to accept items that are damaged and that even though the truck drivers want us to, so they can just drop in.
go upon their way, that's not always what's best for our plant, obviously. So basically I pulled three of them together that work on the receiving dock and was explaining this to them and explaining that, I know they're all buddies with the truck drivers and stuff, but they don't have our best interests. They don't pay our bills, that sort of thing. So we need to do what's right for the plant. While I was doing this, this gentleman
popped his head around the corner two or three times and I just went on, just kept going with what I was doing. And then finally the fourth time he comes around the corner and under his breath he goes, doesn't anybody have anything to do around here? Well, I heard it and
At that point I had about enough of those kind of comments from him. So I just said, nope, nope, nobody has anything to do around here but you. You're the only one that works. You work so hard. And he didn't like that I did that. So he ran at me and was saying, don't you raise your voice to me. Don't you raise your voice to me. And I didn't really raise my voice. I just said it loud enough that he could hear it because he was walking.
away from us. And when he started coming at me rather quickly, there were two gentlemen and a female employee that I was explaining this to about the pallet that came in damaged and the two gentlemen, they kind of scattered. They looked like little rats scurrying away from the situation.
Carrie McNulty (05:23)
They ran away.
Yeah.
Dan (05:28)
And the female, she just stood there and watched the whole thing. Like, and she wasn't real close to me. We were probably 10 feet apart or whatever, but the gentleman ran at me, then cocked his fist and he said, I'll knock your expletive head off. And I kind of giggled, I giggled, I laughed. thought, you know, I was in the moment and wasn't, you know, it was,
Carrie McNulty (05:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dan (05:57)
That was just my reaction.
Carrie McNulty (05:59)
Yeah, your immediate response was the laugh.
Dan (06:01)
And then, after I chuckled for a minute, I said, well, what's the problem here? Like, you don't like being called out. You're trying to call us out. Like, what's the problem? And he just, at that point he stormed off, and went towards my boss's office or whatever. And I just went right back into my lesson, finished telling the other team members what I needed from them. And then I went back to my desk.
Carrie McNulty (06:21)
you
Dan (06:28)
Well, when I go.
Carrie McNulty (06:28)
So wait, so
wait one second. So you just don't miss a beat. You grab these people come back from hiding wherever they were and the woman that's standing there. Okay, okay. You just call and then you just look at them and you say, so like I was saying, yeah, okay.
Dan (06:36)
I called him back. I called him back. So, yeah.
Yes, absolutely. they're
like, the funny thing was, is they're like looking at me like, what the like, did that just happen? Like, because I just kept going. And I'm like, I'm, you know, making sure that because I can see in their eyes that they're like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, you understand what I'm saying. This is what's important. And this what I'm telling you is what is important in this whole sequence of everything. yeah. Okay. We get it. We understand. Okay, we're good.
Carrie McNulty (06:50)
Right. Yeah.
Dan (07:12)
So I go back to my desk and when I got back to my desk, the guy who I had the confrontation with, he had sent me an email that just said, I'm leaving for the day. And that was it. And then he must've been on his way out the door as I read that email and thought, I better go tell my boss about this. So we somehow missed each other and him going out the door
to go home from my boss's office to me going to my boss's office. Probably missed each other by like a minute, which is probably good.
Carrie McNulty (07:46)
Yeah, yeah.
If you wouldn't have continued your lesson, you would have ran into each other again. Yeah.
Dan (07:51)
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. So I went to my boss's office and he's just like, you know, he goes, what is going on? He's like that. He said he's going to knock you out or something like that. And I said, no, you're not going to knock him out. He's like, I'm going to knock him out. And then he said, I'm leaving for the day and then left. And I was then my boss was saying I was trying to call him back in to see, you know, what he was so frustrated about.
So then I explained it to my boss and he's just like, he's like, are you okay? Are you all right? And I'm thinking, why? Yeah, I'm totally fine. I'm like, I'm just giving you information. And I told him, I'm like, I'm just telling you what happened. I'm fine, I'm totally fine. Like, you know I can handle myself, I'm good. And I didn't, it probably was a day or two after that I realized that the threat
Carrie McNulty (08:27)
Thank
Dan (08:48)
part of it, like, cause to me it was never, I guess I didn't take it seriously. Like I never thought it was really going to come to that. so, I called you that, that evening.
Carrie McNulty (08:59)
And so, wait,
was it a couple days into it that you kind of realized that other people's reaction to that was probably the more expected reaction and your reaction was the thing that maybe seemed odd to them? Was that a couple days or was that longer?
Dan (09:12)
Yeah,
it was probably about two days because in the span of what had occurred, this guy never came back to work for three days. So he just kept calling off. And we like I had met with HR with my boss there to explain what had occurred, what he had said to him. My boss went to the HR.
Carrie McNulty (09:16)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (09:39)
My boss was explaining to HR what he said to him, just so they got the whole story and basically knew that, you know, and I was like, I'm not worried about it at all. I had three witnesses there. don't, whatever. I don't think I did anything wrong. So I wasn't worried about it, but the HR person kept saying like, are you okay? Can you please go back to the other three team members and
Carrie McNulty (09:41)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (10:06)
and see if they're okay and if they need to talk to somebody, let them know that I'm available and that your boss is available and that you're available and that this isn't normal appropriate behavior and that we're not going to tolerate this and you know, all that stuff that I, know, common sense tells you, yes, you're not supposed to do that in the workplace, but I'm not, I wasn't fazed by it at all. Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (10:16)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, you were completely unfazed, but in case
other people were having an issue with it after the fact, which would seem odd to you, right? Yeah.
Dan (10:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, and one
of the one of the gentlemen that kind of scurried away when he's like, he said, boy, I really don't like confrontation. He's like, he's like, and I looked over at you and you were laughing. He's like, I thought, I'm like, what is going on? I'm like. And I was just like, I said, I didn't I kind of played it off as like, I didn't know what to do. It was just a knee jerk, you know.
Carrie McNulty (10:56)
What a weird reaction to this.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (11:09)
weird social interaction, kind of making it sound like I was more nervous than could, but that I knew that that definitely wasn't the case. No, no.
Carrie McNulty (11:15)
Right, like it wasn't a nervous response for you. No, no, it
wasn't. And so you call me that night, was it the night that it happened or the day after that, the night that it happened? Okay, and so by that point, you were just sort of retelling it like, hey, here's sort of a weird, funny thing that happened at work today. Not like funny, ha ha, but like strange, you know, and here's how people responded to it. We just talked about it a bit.
Dan (11:25)
The night, the night, the night that happened, yeah.
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (11:40)
And then in the coming days you were like, wait, everybody's acting like this was a big deal and I didn't see any danger in it at all at the time. And so, in thinking about it, we've talked a little bit about it since, but.
as it relates and I have to be honest even when you called and told me I was like yeah haha this guy will probably just retire whatever know whatever like it didn't it didn't surprise me that you reacted that way and I'm guessing that's probably why you called me to tell me is because you know I know you're yeah
Dan (12:18)
yeah, it's
because that could have went a couple different ways. Yeah. Yes.
Carrie McNulty (12:23)
Right, right. Historically, so
with that said, like let's say Dan of 20 years ago had the situation happen, how would it be different? I mean, I know how, but like tell everybody else how it would be different.
Dan (12:33)
Yes.
Well, and
So, and I'll tell you like when it did happen at first, like there were cues that I have learned, within myself that like, could feel my ears getting hot because I was irritated by the situation. My reaction was to laugh, this time, but I think 20 years ago, I was a lot more impulsive.
Carrie McNulty (12:46)
you
yeah
yeah
Dan (13:09)
And him running at me with his fist out, I probably would have head butted him in face. I probably would have done that. And being 27 at the time, I wouldn't have cared whether I lost my job or not. It wouldn't have mattered to me. I was going to get the upper, what I thought was the upper hand and that, yeah, I would have won. Definitely.
Carrie McNulty (13:16)
Yeah.
You were gonna win.
Dan (13:36)
or you know, got beaten into a bloody pulp, whatever happened, I mean, because it's gone that way before too, but yeah, I would have not acted appropriately. And I don't, mean, I'm not sure if laughing was appropriate or not. It's just, it was my way of, I guess, dealing with the situation and actually kind of calming myself down because
Carrie McNulty (13:41)
trying.
Right, right.
Yeah.
I was just gonna
say it probably diffused you, right? Like that, yeah.
Dan (14:07)
Oh yeah, because
I thought this is so ridiculous. This 60 some year old guy coming at me, you know, it was so ridiculous that it turned out funny to me. And then I thought about, and the thing that I thought about it afterwards, and this took a few days till I could reflect back on it and get out of, you know, my initial response of being irritated and angry at this guy.
Carrie McNulty (14:20)
Yeah.
Dan (14:37)
was that if I never, if I hadn't become more self aware, that could have been me at 60 some years old. Like that is something I totally could have seen myself doing. mean, in, in my younger days, it's something that I had done. had attacked a supervisor at a part-time job, but, I just,
Carrie McNulty (14:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, so what
was that like to realize that that make you more empathetic towards him or.
Dan (15:05)
In
a way, it made me more empathetic towards him, but it still made me think, man, that is not acceptable behavior. That's really ridiculous. And those are things that I, when I had experienced that in the past where I was the aggressor, I couldn't see at that time. Like now I see it as...
Carrie McNulty (15:27)
Yeah.
Dan (15:31)
It just makes me wonder like I don't how have I been in a management position for 20 some years
Carrie McNulty (15:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (15:38)
almost 25 years and fortunately haven't had many of these situations because I could have ended my career a long time ago if this would have happened 20 years ago. So.
Carrie McNulty (15:50)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could have,
yeah, because chances are, if it was you 20 years ago, you wouldn't have just cocked your fist at somebody. If you were running at them, you probably would have connected with that, you know, and that who knows where you would have been. You wouldn't have been doing what you're doing now.
Dan (16:02)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Carrie McNulty (16:07)
You that's for sure. You wouldn't be in the position that you are now. You would not have been able to build what you've built for yourself now if that was a choice that you would have made. basically what you're saying is like, yeah, you can relate to him on some level, but you get that it's okay to be angry about stuff, but it's not justifiable to act the way he acted no matter how mad you are. Yeah.
Dan (16:07)
No, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. The other
part of it, think about it too, is like he was there 40, over 40, it was 42 years. Like what, what a way to go out, you know, who wants to go out that way? You're supposed to be at the end of, I was even giving him the opportunity to coast and he, mean, he was in a job that was a lot less stressful, a lot less difficult to do.
Carrie McNulty (16:34)
you
Yeah. Yeah, that sucks.
Yeah.
Dan (16:52)
while he was letting these other people get experience in what he did day to day. So it was something I thought that he would embrace for the last, yeah.
Carrie McNulty (16:52)
Good.
Right, appreciate, yeah.
Instead he took it as an insult to, unfortunately, right, we can only assume, because he never really said exactly how he felt, he just acted that way, so we just can assume. So when we talk about you 20 years ago and prior, what made it so that that's how you would have responded in that kind of situation, where you would have fought, or you would have gotten physical?
Dan (17:29)
Well, I mean, I think that there's a lot of factors. I I would say that, you know, our upbringing in many different facets, you know, shaped how I handled certain situations. And there were, there was positive reinforcement where there shouldn't have been.
and no consequences where there should have been for that type of outburst and behavior and not only that, that was something that happened in our growing up almost daily. Like it was, there was always like, I don't want to paint the picture by any means that I had a bad upbringing because I don't believe that at all. Like it is.
Carrie McNulty (18:11)
Yeah.
Dan (18:22)
It's what it was. It was the family dynamic that was passed down from generation to generation to generation. And, you know.
Carrie McNulty (18:30)
for sure.
Yeah,
definitely repeat when stuff isn't talked about or healed or whatever, right? So it's just what was normal in our family of origin would not be considered quote unquote normal in a lot of other families, but that doesn't mean that you and I turned out poorly, right? Like that's, yeah, yeah.
Dan (18:48)
Correct, yeah.
I mean, I think in a lot of instances that we could have turned out a lot worse than what we did. I mean, there could have been a lot of substance abuse and all. mean, it's not like it wasn't around or, you know, we just chose our own different path, which...
Carrie McNulty (19:02)
No.
Yeah, yeah, we definitely
did in our own ways. And, you know, you and I talked about the fact that,
We were both, it was drilled into us, literally, verbally drilled into us that we had to be respectful of other people. So there are no people that you're going to find that are kinder when they go out to a restaurant or say thank you more or please more, or, you know, I bet to this day, you don't wear a hat when you sit at the dinner table. And, you know, there are certain things that we were just, anybody who was older than us, we had to be respectful of them. But at the same time, like you said, you were getting messages all the time that when you were aggressive,
or when you would get physical or when you would get loud, there are people that were reinforcing that in our family too. So you are getting the messages of you have to be respectful, but it's also okay if you completely lose it. And if it's in the defense of your family or if it's in the defense of a perceived slight, right? Yeah. So that's a pretty confusing way to navigate, I guess, what's...
Dan (20:06)
yeah. yeah.
Carrie McNulty (20:14)
Like you said, social cues, hard to navigate those.
Dan (20:15)
Well,
you put it in good context and that is that, yeah, it was acceptable if you were sticking up for yourself or the family or anybody weaker, actually, especially the males in the family. think the males in our family got a lot more leadway.
Carrie McNulty (20:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (20:45)
than the females did in more than just aggression. I like you and I have talked before, like I never had a curfew, not one minute. It didn't matter if I came in at 3 a.m., 5 a.m., 12 midnight, but you always had a curfew.
Carrie McNulty (20:50)
Yeah.
Thank
That was fine. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got grounded once for coming home after 11. I was like, come on. Come on.
Dan (21:08)
Yeah.
So, and I don't, think that that was part of that culture that the females in our family wanted, they wanted that at least one strong male to be able to defend the family no matter what. And if that meant,
Carrie McNulty (21:20)
Thank
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Dan (21:36)
letting them be overly aggressive and inappropriate and basically insane. That was okay. Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (21:41)
Yeah. That was okay. Yeah, because it was,
and so again, I, for anybody who hasn't listened to an episode that I did about my mom, there is information about her and the reason it is explained more why that was something that she was okay with my brother doing with people. She had a lot of reasons historically to be afraid and trust was always difficult for her.
So if she felt like somebody was around that could take care of things, if something bad were to happen, she was okay with that, I think, even if it meant that the relationship between my brother and I wasn't that good, because that was not as healthy or whatever as it could be. was like, what's the benefit versus the cost here? And safety is funnily enough, right? Safety was important to her, but not...
She, her gauge of what was safe and not safe was off because of the stuff that she went through. Right? So having you be sort of like this dog at the end of a leash that's always ready to bite somebody's head off was better in a lot of ways and felt more protective. but you know, it didn't really always matter who that was being directed at as long as it wasn't her. Yeah. huh.
Dan (22:57)
Yeah, and especially as I got older it was
yeah because then it was Nobody was gonna mess with anybody because you know when you're 10 that's different than when you're 16 17 And you can do physical harm to somebody that is or at least give the perceived threat of physical harm and people are gonna back down because
Carrie McNulty (23:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dan (23:27)
you know, mostly that's what happens in that situation. Like I, was more used to being overly aggressive to the point that people just would look at me like I was insane and then run away, walk away, whatever. and you said, know, whether that hurt our relationship, you and I, but it's just my relationships in general.
Carrie McNulty (23:43)
you
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Dan (23:54)
because
I did not handle myself appropriately. I know I had the reputation of being an asshole, you know, and because it took very little to set me off like a powder keg. And when, and there's that reinforcement again, there's no negative consequences.
Carrie McNulty (24:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dan (24:19)
You know, we didn't grow up in a time in school where you got in trouble for fighting. I mean, it wasn't until my junior year of high school that we even got suspended. We used to just get in school suspension where we sat in a room all day by ourselves. But now you get, you know, you get charged for assault.
Carrie McNulty (24:40)
yeah, there's zero tolerance.
Yeah, zero tolerance now. But to that point, that also fostered that environment. So even if we had a different situation in our house growing up, the school that we went to wasn't the easiest school to be in.
Dan (24:56)
No, know,
it was just a situation where, like I found out, mean, when I started elementary school and the teachers, they all, he's so sweet. He's the nicest kid. as I got older, that turned around, like that was, you know, because at first
Carrie McNulty (25:09)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (25:17)
I was sweet until I realized that the people around me aren't nice. and I got to the point where I can either be bullied or be the bully and, or at the very least, cause I don't want to say I never went out of, I never went out of my way to make somebody feel rotten or less of themselves. Like I didn't, I wasn't one of those people that were, you know, picking on.
Carrie McNulty (25:19)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (25:47)
People just to pick on them, but I didn't defend I didn't defend them either because that would put me in their situation which I didn't want to be and Where I? Was was that people didn't pick on me because they knew I'd explode so it was almost better to Have that kind of tough exterior and you know where people think that you're not
all together there because then they don't mess with you.
Carrie McNulty (26:20)
Yeah. And there was
a lot of being messed with. mean, our school at the time had seventh graders and with 12th graders. So, I mean, the huge difference in development and just size and all kinds of stuff between a seventh grader and a 12th grader. And it was rough. It was, you know,
Dan (26:23)
Yeah.
Absolutely, yeah.
Carrie McNulty (26:35)
It was either you learned how to defend yourself physically or verbally, but there was some sort of way that you had to know how to defend yourself. Because, I always said, I was pitied like new kids that would come to the school because it was like either you fell in right away with the people who were, you know, popular. doing quotes with my fingers. Or, you know, you, and then there was a hierarchy. So even the kids that were there before that weren't cool, they still couldn't wait for somebody new to come so they could drill them. You know, if they didn't fall into the higher place in the hierarchy, it was
Dan (26:47)
yeah. Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (27:05)
This is really not a great environment. And it definitely made me cultivate parts of myself that I'm not proud of. But luckily parts I don't have to use as much anymore.
Dan (27:06)
here.
Carrie McNulty (27:16)
You know, there was one point where if somebody said something to me, I could cut them down and probably make them cry. Like I could figure out what their weakness was pretty quickly and you know, whatever. Thankfully I never had to fist fight anybody other than you. But, but you know, like it was, it was tough. It was, and there were some pretty wild girl fights at our school anyway. Like, yeah, was pretty wild, but we had a cemetery next to the school where people would go fight after the school day. So, you
Dan (27:37)
yeah. yeah.
Carrie McNulty (27:46)
it just it was a different time the 90s yeah three o'clock yeah right might as well just add to it
Dan (27:46)
Yeah. You and me at the graveyard. Three o'clock graveyard. You're dead.
with all the deceased that are already there.
Carrie McNulty (28:00)
So, so yeah, it just sounds like from where we were to where you got in this situation. And I asked you and I'm going to ask you again for you to share it is like, how did you change? How did it become obvious to you that things needed to change? Yeah.
Dan (28:17)
Well, I mean, it took a long time. Like
it really did. was going against everything I've ever learned or had ingrained in me. But basically I just got tired of being that asshole. I just got, it's not fun. It's very lonely for one thing. Nobody wants to be around somebody that can explode at any point. And you know, you have to, I,
you have to really look in inward at yourself and be very honest with yourself. And I've struggled with that for years and years and years. Like I've been in and out of counseling. only ever had, I only ever really had one counselor that was really of any worth. The rest would just sit there and listen to, or they would
you know, prompt me to, and I would just tell them what they wanted to hear because I knew what was going on in that setting and I didn't really want to work on myself.
Carrie McNulty (29:14)
the thing right you knew what they wanted to hear because you weren't really ready to do anything different so you just said whatever they you know you're doing great you got your a right yeah yeah
Dan (29:22)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was just a waste of time for me anyway. It was like,
come on, let's get these 50 minutes out of here because this is not, this is not worth my time. Like I'm not, I, and I think, and you know, counselors are different in how their approach is and all that stuff. I hadn't found one that worked for me, but I, part of not finding one that worked for me was not, was I didn't respect any of them except for the one.
Carrie McNulty (29:29)
You
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dan (29:51)
The one pushed me and basically just said, are you gonna work on yourself or you just gonna keep feeding me a bunch of shit? And it made me like, she actually can see what I'm doing here. Like she actually realizes that I'm just feeding her shit to get out of here. Like she's, and that made me respect her and think, yeah, I guess.
it now is the time to work on this because at that time I had also hit probably my rock bottom. So it was, okay, let's get better from here.
Carrie McNulty (30:28)
I'm glad that you did what you've done or that you are who you are now because we have, I mean, and again, it isn't just about our relationship, but it...
To me that's important because I, you well you're my brother, you're the one person that knows what it's like to grow up in the house that we grew up in together. Even if our experiences were different, you know, you just, it would be a really hard time to not have you. So.
Dan (30:52)
I and
I think that too and there I mean there's there's things too that like Whether Unconsciously or consciously that I have blocked out and You'll mention it and I won't I'll be like and I did that happen did it like I don't remember that like that Because
Carrie McNulty (31:04)
you
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You have to know that I
don't forget anything. I'm... Yeah.
Dan (31:19)
because I didn't, well, I usually don't either, but like I have found that
a lot of things like that, where I think my way of coping with some of the more not so pleasant things was that to, that, you know, make them that they never happened or never, or never ever think about them again. because that's just how I,
Carrie McNulty (31:39)
Yeah.
Dan (31:46)
chose to, like I said, either unconsciously or consciously chose to cope with a certain situation because I, you know, even things that I have done, and then some of things too was like, I don't remember some of it because I was so blacked out with rage when it was going on that I don't necessarily remember.
Carrie McNulty (31:51)
Yeah, you compartmentalized it.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I believe that. I definitely believe that because it would even be just sort of a look that would come over your face and your eyes where you would look different, you know, and then later on it was like with you would happen and then everything would be cool. And you know, you're like, what's the problem? And other people are looking around like, what do mean? What's the problem? You know, you just completely lost your mind.
Dan (32:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (32:36)
whatever happened, but I do think it's a normal response especially because I think that when those things happened and you had to look at yourself or assess it it evokes that feeling of shame and then you probably just shut it down right away put it in a box and forgot about it. You know because who wants to feel that you know who wants to let me revisit it a hundred thousand times like that doesn't feel good but I think by doing that or even just by having people say things that happened that you don't remember and you tolerating it and sitting with it is probably helped you too.
Dan (32:50)
Yeah.
definitely. The thing that I think about and I'm more aware of than I ever have been is people's reaction to me. Whereas before, I was so uber aggressive that I was going to get my point across, I was going to be right, I was going to win, and I didn't really give two shits what anybody else thought about it.
Carrie McNulty (33:06)
you
Hmm.
Dan (33:34)
whether it be bystanders or the people I'm aiming it at or whatever, it didn't, now I'm more aware of just even their facial expressions. If I feel myself getting loud, I'm noticing, you know, somebody back away or look at me like, and those sorts of things that, especially with people that I care about, like I am very aware of that.
Carrie McNulty (33:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (34:04)
you know, really, really try to even when I'm in a situation that upsets me to relax and calm myself down and let me think about it and how I react before I just start screaming. Because I don't want that other person to be intimidated or just give up because they think
Carrie McNulty (34:21)
like you, like you, go ahead.
Dan (34:31)
he's can't like this is we can't even have a normal conversation about this because he's so overly angry. Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (34:40)
You're getting escalated.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it just says a lot too about you knowing your internal cues and just feeling it in your body. Like you said, my ears get hot or I know like, you know the signs now, but when you were younger, it was like all systems go, who cares? You know what I'm feeling, you know, now you've learned how to before you get it to 10 to stop it.
Dan (34:44)
you
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (35:00)
than before that wasn't a thing. again, I don't want to be like, like you said, we have the worst childhood in the world because we didn't. I mean, we didn't have the worst childhood, but comparatively there are people that have things that are a lot harder for sure. And I do know that the things that happened in our house really where our mom was coming from was she wanted us to be ready for life to be hard, which we both were. And I am grateful for that.
not, no, that sounds negative, but you had to know her. Like it wasn't all bad at all. Right. And she did really love us a lot, but I think it was really hard for her to, she wasn't somebody who was going to get help for herself. So that was very unlikely that she was ever going to do anything when she saw stuff with you. Right. And especially if she didn't think it was a real big deal and, know, comparatively to some of the stuff that she went through, that wasn't a big deal. So.
Dan (35:47)
Well, I I think, I think
the point in what you're saying is that, yeah, there were some things that aren't quote unquote normal or, you know, borderline on that, you know, abusive nature or whatever. But with that being said, you and I have both become very self-sufficient. Like we don't, don't need anybody. I can do anything on my own.
Carrie McNulty (35:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (36:16)
take care of anything that I need to take care of on my own. can deal with just about anything that comes my way, which is also feeds into this situation and me laughing because I also knew that if that guy hit me, I, he was, it wasn't going to do anything. Like I've been hit so hard like so many times, most of the time of my own doing.
Carrie McNulty (36:35)
Yeah, you're like, well.
Mm hmm.
Dan (36:44)
you know, getting into fights with people that I shouldn't
have been getting into fights with in the first place and just being overly aggressive and stuff. just, I knew, so what if he hit me? Like, okay, then I take it. you know, then well, he's definitely not coming back whether he chooses to or not, you know, so.
Carrie McNulty (36:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but no part of you felt like then you'd have to fight him, right? You just knew, like that wasn't even on your radar. And I agree that we're both very, very independent and could do whatever for ourselves and what we require from people in relationships isn't that much. But I think that what we both have come to realize is that we would prefer to have people. You know, and that...
Dan (37:11)
No, no, no, no, no. No.
Yeah, because you can't,
you can't.
Carrie McNulty (37:31)
that work has
to be done so that you can have relationships and you can have people and it is important on some level. We were prepared, we were set up that if we didn't have it or we could survive it but what we're choosing is that we would rather have it. Yeah, yeah.
Dan (37:46)
definitely. Because,
yeah, that's, there's not really much point to life if you're going to live it on your own and not have relationships. And, you know, it's, it's a very empty existence to choose to be by yourself where yes, you're self-sufficient. Sure, that's great. But,
Carrie McNulty (37:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (38:12)
That only goes so far. It's not very fulfilling. Yeah, you can do it on your
Carrie McNulty (38:13)
Yeah.
Dan (38:23)
I just think that, you know.
I'm in a better place because I'm more aware of other people's feelings and thoughts rather than just my own.
Carrie McNulty (38:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's a good, that's like the best takeaway from this, you know, and yeah.
Dan (38:41)
Which seems
like, I mean, yeah, it seems so trivial when easily said or whatever, but like it took me a long time to learn that. A very long time. Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (38:49)
Yeah, it was hard earned. Very hard earned.
Yeah, definitely. Well, I appreciate you coming on and telling people your story because again, I was like, that's not something you hear every day, you know? But just your growth in general and just, you know, how we got here and I just find it interesting. I just think we're really cool.
Dan (39:12)
Well, for once in my life, it's not my fault. know,
like I didn't do anything.
Carrie McNulty (39:19)
What's the idea? You had witnesses. You didn't even do anything. Yeah. All right. Well, again, thank you for coming on. I love you. And I'll talk to you later and everybody listening. I'll be back in another couple of weeks with another episode. And in the meantime, take care of yourselves and I will talk to you then.
Dan (39:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Love you too.
