We've Always Done It This Way: A Discussion About The Mental Health System with Sarah Wojdylak

In season 2 episode 2 of Carrie's Always Talking the subject of the mental health system is up on deck. Carrie is joined by her guest, Sarah Wojdylak, who shares her perspective as someone who's participated both sides of the system. She shares some of the challenges she's experienced as both a client and as a provider in her most recent job at a non profit. They discuss the importance of self-advocacy, the impact of stigma, and the need for empathy in mental health care. Sarah discloses the reasons behind her decision to make a big change in her life- guided by the knowledge that making the best choice for her mental health is worth more than a paycheck. There are a lot of laughs and yes- anding throughout the episode. 

If you have a story you'd like to tell, send me an email at carrie.always.talking@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.

You can also find me on Bluesky- @carrie-is-talking.bsky.social 

YouTube- @carrie-always-talking

Transcript

Carrie McNulty (00:01.326)

Hello and welcome back to Carrie's Always Talking. I'm your host, Carrie McNulty. This is the podcast all about stories and connections. I believe when people share their story with one another, it's the best way to build empathy in humanity, which is something I think we need a little bit more of, maybe a little bit more of in the world today. This is gonna be season two, episode two. And I have my good friend, Sarah Wojcik. 

Carrie McNulty (00:26.662)

on today and she's talking about her perspective as somebody who has both been a participant in the mental health system as somebody receiving services and also being on the other side of providing resources in her most recent job. And she talks a lot about what it's like in both of those positions as well as her decision to make a big choice recently that some people would be really afraid about. 

Carrie McNulty (00:56.384)

and I don't want to give too much away because I want you to listen and see but sometimes when you have to make a choice about what's best for your mental health it goes against what we would consider to be the the best way to go about something or the safest or the most secure way to do it but Sarah's story is really about knowing yourself well knowing how to get yourself feeling better when you're starting to struggle more mental health wise and sometimes you have to take a risk in your choices 

Carrie McNulty (01:24.174)

put your mental health and wellbeing first and figure out what comes next as that goes, rather than being really planful on the forefront of this big decision. So Sarah and I know each other because I did improv with her. She was also an improv coach where I was taking classes and she's a lot of fun. You'll see that in the beginning of our discussion, 

Carrie McNulty (01:50.36)

that we're sort of finding our way. It's not necessarily certain exactly what we're even going to talk about or what the subject matter is going to be. We find our way there as you so often do in improv, just yes, ending what the person says, which is kind of the number one rule for that. And we eventually get to, think, a really good conversation. And there's also, again, a lot of ease with Sarah because I know her well and because we've performed together. So hopefully you'll enjoy our interaction and kind of our banter. 

Carrie McNulty (02:19.67)

I want to say that to anybody who's been listening and following along and joining me for season two, or if you're new, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate all of you. If you are able and willing to leave a review and or rating anywhere where you're listening to the podcast, as always, I appreciate that. And my contact information will be in the show notes, especially my email. If you are interested in coming on and telling a story of your own, as I mentioned in the intro to the first episode. 

Carrie McNulty (02:47.68)

You know, you can also do that anonymously should you choose. So if you have a story you want to tell and you reach out to me you're like, I do really want to tell this, but I would rather not have my name out there. No worries. I can also, even if when I moved a video, if you would prefer to just have it be an audio episode again, I can do that. 

Carrie McNulty (03:05.058)

I do just wanna quickly mention that I did figure out YouTube enough to get my episodes up. So I have a YouTube page and that will be in the show notes. There is no video yet, but I'm working on that. One other little thing about my interview discussion with Sarah, there is gonna be some profanity and I like to give a little warning about that. Not a ton, but it's there. There's also a brief mention of an assault, which is something that happened that sort of led her into therapy. 

Carrie McNulty (03:31.17)

There isn't any details given or specifics, but I do like to give the heads up and the warning that there is the mention of that in case that would be upsetting for somebody to hear. All right. 

Carrie McNulty (03:43.067)

So let me know if that opens up any, gets anybody's thoughts going, you know, maybe I would like to do this, but I don't quite feel brave enough to have my name out there. That's totally fine. A good story is a good story. 

Carrie McNulty (03:56.223)

and I'm always open to hearing it, as I'm sure many of the people listening are too. So I'm going to go ahead and get this second episode started and I will see you again in another couple weeks.

Carrie McNulty (00:01)

Hi, Sarah.

Sarah Wojdylak (00:02)

Hello, Carrie.

Carrie McNulty (00:05)

How's it going?

Sarah Wojdylak (00:06)

It's going okay. It's a Saturday morning. I put mascara on for a no video podcast, so I'm ready to talk to you.

Carrie McNulty (00:17)

Well, I

wouldn't accept this whole thing that we're doing here unless there was mascara involved. So I'm glad to know that it's important. I know. I swear by it.

Sarah Wojdylak (00:24)

Get take note future guests take note.

Right, it helps it helps with sound it keeps the sound waves from bouncing off of your eyelids.

Carrie McNulty (00:36)

Mm-hmm.

Which believe it not is quite loud. So yeah

Sarah Wojdylak (00:43)

It is, it's so loud.

That's what my pop filter is for, is just to keep the flapping sound. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (00:50)

Down, yeah.

It's powerful, powerful lashes, you know?

Sarah Wojdylak (00:56)

Yeah, that's the sound of blinking.

Carrie McNulty (00:59)

So I, you know, I'm doing well too. It's Saturday and I don't have to see clients. So, you know, excited about that. Not that I don't love my job, but it's Saturday and I'm glad I don't have to see clients, you know, so.

Sarah Wojdylak (01:00)

How are you?

Yeah.

and you

get to just be yourself.

Carrie McNulty (01:18)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I try to always be myself, but to varying degrees, right? You know, can't, can't, right. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Parts of us.

Sarah Wojdylak (01:26)

Right. I have some selves that are not professional for sure and they need to

they need to take a backseat sometimes.

Carrie McNulty (01:35)

Right. Get back there, guys. Yeah, we all have different

parts of us. Not every part of me does therapy with people, believe it or not. Yeah, and that's probably for the best. Because 15-year-old me might do it differently than adult me. So.

Sarah Wojdylak (01:43)

Right.

Yeah.

God,

my 15 year old self is sometimes the loudest little jerk. She just wants to like come into places and just double middle finger and she she does know like, you don't know me. I know everything. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (01:57)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Right, she knows it all. So she doesn't, yeah.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. So yeah, the more aggressive teenager probably wouldn't be the one you want taking therapeutic advice from, but she's there nonetheless. So, you know, she's in there and sometimes she does come out and then I'll be like, whoa, what's going on that activated her? And for anybody who is like, what the hell are they talking about? Tangentially, we're talking about parts work and therapy here. Like, you know, you can have multiple parts of you just so you know that, you know, not

Sarah Wojdylak (02:25)

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (02:38)

All parts can drive the bus at one time, usually just one part of you is, or maybe two, but if you think back to when you were 15, you probably don't want that part of you making all of your life decisions. But sometimes when you get upset or you get triggered, that part can come up and decide it knows what's best. And that's kind of what Sarah and I are talking about, is that we don't want that happening while we're at work. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (03:00)

Yes, yes. my,

like, I love, that's something that I had to work really hard towards, was like loving all of those parts. And I'm not there yet, because sometimes, like you just heard me, I was like that little 15 year old bitch. But like, I also kind of appreciate a 15 year old bitch, because she's who keeps me like being like, nope, this is wrong. Like, nope, need to be a little bit angry and listen to me and use that to like move yourself forward.

Carrie McNulty (03:06)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah? Yeah.

You

Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (03:26)

I

thankfully I have a therapist right now who's great and she's often just like, nope, you're not making yourself small. Do not make yourself, and I'm always like, what if I'm the, what if I'm the thing? I did this thing and I should just crawl under a blanket. You know what I mean? And she's like, nope, we don't make ourselves small. And like, whoo, boy, did I need that. Yeah. Yes.

Carrie McNulty (03:40)

No. No. That's awesome. Does she do any kind of parts

work with you or no? I mean...

Sarah Wojdylak (03:49)

No, I most of my parts work is through like understanding it myself. did have I did do a little bit of EMDR and that that intersected with with parts work. But it was it was like a very structured parts work. They're like, this is your your responsible self and this is your critical. And I was like, and I couldn't keep them straight because I I'm like a little bit more of an abstract thinker. And so like in the middle of being like

Carrie McNulty (03:55)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (04:19)

and this thing happened and this person died and all that. I'd be like, what is your critical self thing? I'm like, I don't know.

Carrie McNulty (04:21)

Mm-hmm.

Teenager gets angry.

Sarah Wojdylak (04:27)

right

i don't know what she thinks she just said yeah to grieve and not do this structured thing right now so yeah

Carrie McNulty (04:31)

know? I don't know! She's just mad! I don't know! She's upset about it! Stop asking!"

Well,

yeah. And I totally get where that person was coming from that was doing that work with you because they do integrate well together. so Parts Work internal family systems, again, for anybody who's not sure, just kind of give a little bit of background on that. And EMDR, which is a reprocessing trauma therapy that you can do, they both go well together. They're like, you know, chocolate and peanut butter, two great things that go great together in the therapy world. But you're right. The reason PartsWork is helpful with the EMDR is because if you get stuck,

Sarah Wojdylak (05:01)

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (05:07)

if you kind of keep going over and over something and you can't get somewhere, likely a part of you is blocking that because it feels too scary. And so you work with that part to maybe get it to step aside or we hear what it needs to say so we can keep moving forward. So yeah, there's, you can work them together or you can do them separately. I like both of those modalities of therapy.

Sarah Wojdylak (05:23)

It's also really helpful to determine what, I'm making fun of critical self, but I learned that my critical self was not even my voice. was multiple voice from that, 15 year old heard that she's not good enough and she's too much and she's too loud and she doesn't do enough and all of that kind of stuff. And so I had to untangle what is my own.

Carrie McNulty (05:30)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (05:52)

critical

self versus what was my my parents critical, critical voice. Yeah, cannot stress that enough.

Carrie McNulty (05:57)

Well, yeah. Stressing on the critical. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, you're right. And I think learning to accept, if you can't always love a part of you, just accepting that it's doing a job for you. I think that's you can have a lot of empathy for parts of yourself when you're like, you know, this may not be the way I want to present here, but I was upset and triggered and this part came in to protect me in that moment because it didn't want me to feel vulnerable. You know?

Sarah Wojdylak (06:12)

Yes.

right.

Carrie McNulty (06:25)

And

it takes a lot of work to get there because like you said, initially there are going to be parts of you that are like, I hate that 15 year old. They cause problems every time they open their mouth and make a situation worse. Right. And that's not how I want to present myself. But whenever you get to the place where your core energy or your self energy can look at that part and say, she's doing the best she can with the skill she had in that moment. You know, she's really trying her best to protect me. Then you look at it differently. You're like, well, that's pretty cool that I was able to cultivate that part of me, that that showed up when I needed it.

Sarah Wojdylak (06:44)

Yes.

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (06:53)

Especially if parents were really critical and didn't treat you the way you needed to be treated, a part of you showed up that was like, fuck you. You're not going to talk to me like that. So it's kind cool when you think about it like that.

Sarah Wojdylak (06:54)

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah, I also had the like the an experience of having parents, at least like my mom and stepdad, those kind of they worked in in mental health, they worked in the in supportive services. As a psych nurse, you know, in charge of like, aging care, that sort of thing. And, and I and I got to know this like,

Carrie McNulty (07:17)

Mmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (07:35)

these people who were like in charge that were like they didn't they just talked about people instead of helping the people and and that's that's just like a thing I keep running into in in a lot of mental health like so you don't mean like

Carrie McNulty (07:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (07:58)

I was farm raised in it. my, I mean, literally like my mom was pregnant with me while she was working one of the last like mental health institutions. So like literally farm raised from it. And so, you know, I see all these different kinds of modalities, is that the word that I'm looking up? Of different kinds of therapy. Like I've had tremendous trauma. I've had, you know, big T, little T trauma, that sort of thing. And I, you know, that's why I did.

Carrie McNulty (08:00)

You

Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (08:25)

EMDR. That's why I have been in therapy. That's why I have been in the hospital and like keep going forward. But I keep running into these people who are like, this is the way. Like there is no other way because we had one success and there's nothing else. And I don't know, it kind of takes, it's a bummer because people, usually if you're like, I'm having these problems, I'm having these problems, people are like,

Carrie McNulty (08:25)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Sarah Wojdylak (08:53)

you should talk to a therapist, which is... Yes, absolutely people should talk to a therapist, but that is also like a way to tell someone like, your information is not safe for me to know and listen to. You should be, your care, your voice, your information, your story should only be to a therapist. And you're like, well, no, you're my friends and you've been through this with me and...

Carrie McNulty (08:59)

Mm-hmm

No, but I think you're really onto something, because I do feel like it's really, again, I'm not trying to be your therapist, but as a therapist, when I hear that, what I hear is that, again, you're too much. What you're trying to tell me is too much, so take this somewhere else to somebody that can handle it when that part of you is just looking to connect. And when we tell our story to somebody, that's what we want, is we want to connect with them.

Sarah Wojdylak (09:22)

I'm just rambling now, but the-

Carrie McNulty (09:47)

You know, we want their vulnerability to connect with our vulnerability. And when they're like, you know, you should probably go talk to somebody else about that. Now, depending on what it is that you're trying to share, there's varying degrees of that too, right? Like if somebody is triggered or they have their own stuff or they're, they really feel out of their depth, but there's a way to say that too, that feels supportive.

Sarah Wojdylak (09:47)

Right.

Carrie McNulty (10:08)

and feels like I love you and I care about what you're saying and I want to know what you're saying, but I'm afraid I'll say the wrong thing. Or I feel like, you know, like there's a way to do that other than, you know, you should just really go talk to somebody else about that

Sarah Wojdylak (10:15)

Right.

I also kind of understand like people who don't necessarily experience

mental illness or even they are extremely resilient because they have a good, you know, they have a good family and community and all that kind of stuff. They just want everything to be fine. And like, I get that and I get that. They're like, why can't you just be normal? Be like, I will never be normal. Like, my whole life has been like, I will be as normal as possible. And it just doesn't work. So.

Carrie McNulty (10:31)

Yeah.

Yeah.

you

you

Well, and that again, I think is an illusion that people protect themselves with. know, had my friend come on who's the palliative nurse practitioner, Courtney, and we talked about the things that people say to distance themselves from uncomfortable situations like death because they don't know what to do with it or they don't want to face that themselves. So talking about your vulnerability and things that have happened to you make people feel like that's possible. And when they've never experienced that, they really want to distance themselves from it, you know, and

Sarah Wojdylak (10:57)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (11:22)

they say things that can be harmful or hurtful without meaning to or realizing maybe from their own lack of life experience, but it still feels really invalidating when you're trying to connect and be like, hey, this is something I've been through I mean, you're awesome and fun and amazing. And so I don't know what normal means, right? I like whatever your normal is. I'm into that. But you know, like when somebody...

Sarah Wojdylak (11:39)

Thank you.

Thank you.

Carrie McNulty (11:47)

pushes that away or that attempt for connection, then that builds the feeling of shame of like, there is something wrong with me and that I shouldn't share this stuff with people. And part of your healing probably is sharing your vulnerability. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be for sure a lot. But then that maybe tells you a little bit more about who your people are.

Sarah Wojdylak (11:51)

Yes.

Right, So yeah, and it's a lot for people sometimes. I just try to...

Yes, yes. And who my people aren't for sure, that's an important thing. You know, I had, there's also just the way that like medical providers talk to people with mental illness. Like I understand that like their job is just to like get the facts, get the things, like fill out all the paperwork that everybody has to fill out all the time because everything is just paperwork until we all die from paperwork, I guess.

Carrie McNulty (12:17)

Yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Easy.

Yeah, no, it's true.

Sarah Wojdylak (12:45)

Like, God, can't like, there's this really great, you you can give someone a form for depression and you know that like over the last two weeks have you felt blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's a difference between giving someone that form and being like, hey, I noticed with some things that you're talking about, maybe let's fill this out just so can get a better view.

Carrie McNulty (12:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (13:06)

And then there's what I experienced of someone of being like, you know, going in and being like, listen, I like I have a psychiatrist, I have a doctor, but I'm having intense stomach pain. And I know that that's probably anxiety. You know what mean? I'm like, I feel like my heart is racing out of my chest and I know that I have anxiety, but like it's not getting better. So can somebody come, can you look at the meat sack? Like check out this meat sack. And then, and then to experience someone like roll their eyes.

Carrie McNulty (13:28)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (13:35)

throw that piece of paper on the counter and be like, fill this out. That does not make the situation better. I, you know, at the time that that was happening, like, so let me tell a little bit more of that story. So then after she just threw this piece of paper down, she then,

She did a medical exam, but it was like a pretend one. have this distinct experience of having taught medical students for what, like eight, nine, 10 years how to do physical exams. And they did that on my body. And then I gave them feedback on it and showed them for best results according to Bates, all that kind of stuff. And I will tell you, this woman checked my thyroid by like grazing her hands on my neck. And she barely listened. She'd like put the stethoscope like near my chest.

Carrie McNulty (14:04)

You

you

Sarah Wojdylak (14:28)

and then wrote down in my file, like having mental problems. And I was like, why wouldn't you write down? Why would you do that? And so then I become the problem.

Carrie McNulty (14:34)

Hmm.

Well, right. wait, was this like, was this a doctor's office or was this a psychiatrist's office or where was this? So that really, really cranks my yank. I don't like it. I really don't like it because you already went in there with the vulnerability of being a woman who has an anxiety disorder, I'm guessing, right? Like that's, I'm not again, diagnosing Sarah, but that's what I'm picking up on. There's some anxiety there and

Sarah Wojdylak (14:45)

This was PCP's office. Yeah.

I don't... I didn't... I didn't...

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well, just

pause. have depression and anxiety, but I'm also like a woman. So who knows what it actually is? It's like it's like the new hysteria, but yeah.

Carrie McNulty (15:09)

Okay. Right, right, right. So you go

in and you're already trying to qualify. Hey, I have these things trying to make it so that they'll actually listen to you. And unfortunately what you get is, you know, some waste of time examination and an eye roll and really no answers. When in fact, I don't know if anybody knows this, but you can have anxiety, be a woman and also have a medical concern.

Sarah Wojdylak (15:28)

Yeah.

Yes.

Carrie McNulty (15:37)

Those things

all can exist at the same time.

Sarah Wojdylak (15:40)

Why? What a breakthrough that you just can't

Carrie McNulty (15:42)

Right? Well, apparently it

is because you are certainly not the only person that has told me. I clients upon clients. I primarily see women because of treating eating disorders. And of course not that men can't have eating disorders, but primarily that's who I see. And the amount of

being dismissed or having inappropriate things said to them about their weight when they go to the doctor or it's just it's so hard for me to want to advocate for people and we prep and we get them ready for their appointments you know I have unfortunately I have a lot of younger folks who younger women who are having POTS symptoms more than likely long COVID related and but they also have anxiety disorders so they're going in to see cardiologists or they're going in to see PCPs and they're immediately being

Sarah Wojdylak (16:19)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (16:26)

like, we see that you have anxiety here and you're young, we think this is normal when there's nothing that is normal, quote unquote, about the symptoms that they're having. And they know their anxiety symptoms better than anybody else because they've lived with them their whole entire life. So they know. And when they're like, this is different or this feels off and to have somebody be like, no, it's fine. You we don't need to explore this any further. Just makes me so angry for them, you know.

Sarah Wojdylak (16:36)

Right. Right.

And then the insult to injury was the pretending to do the physical exam. So I took my body into this place asking for a physical exam and then they used it to kind of make fun of me. And so the days afterwards, started to be triggered. So when I was in college, I'd gone out with friends, next thing I knew, drunk rape, left in a hallway, beat the hell up. And that's a lot of my therapy journey.

Carrie McNulty (17:00)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (17:17)

Is

is dealing with that but to have someone use my body in a way that I did not consent to them using it So anyway, I told this woman fuck your I told her fuck your form And I I happen to be working at like a Mental health organization at the time and I went in there and I was trying to tell people about this situation and I you know And I said, you know, I'm not filling out your fucking form and I and I heard someone down the hallway go

Carrie McNulty (17:24)

Yeah.

totally.

Sarah Wojdylak (17:45)

Careful, like what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean? Careful of what? What happens if I don't fill the...

Carrie McNulty (17:51)

Yeah,

what could happen if I'm not careful or I don't fill out the form?

Sarah Wojdylak (17:55)

Yeah.

And that just sat, it sat really bad. It's, you know, it was really hard to trust that person. And like, just mental health administrators in general. I don't, I want to get the idea that these administrators are like care about people and care about their experiences and listen and show some curiosity, but just care for, ugh, I felt bad.

Carrie McNulty (17:59)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (18:25)

feel very bad.

Carrie McNulty (18:25)

yeah,

I mean again, you're coming in looking for some validation and support, again working in a mental health agency thinking that somebody's going to hear you and be like, you're right, like sharing experiences like I'm sharing with you. Yes, this happens all the time. I'm sorry this happened to you. This is, it's not right. They should listen to your concerns and instead them being like, well, you know, you probably should just do what you're being asked to do and not be so difficult. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (18:41)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes. And then

if you are like, nope, I don't like this, they're like, are you borderline? And you're like, OK. Which is like a super stigmatized thing that people have terrible ideas about. the media doesn't really help. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (19:00)

Absolutely. Right.

No, no, social media

doesn't help. It's better now actually that the people who live with that diagnosis and can heal from that diagnosis can share their stories and we can see it. And I think that helps a lot. But at one point getting that diagnosis was, you know, that was the last thing you wanted to hear if you were going in for an assessment,

Sarah Wojdylak (19:25)

Yeah.

I think that they're changing that to be like complex PTSD or something in the future, which is much, a much...

Carrie McNulty (19:35)

There's a very

big overlap between the two. There's a very, so like if you're looking at symptoms for complex PTSD and BPD, there's a lot that are going to be.

Sarah Wojdylak (19:38)

okay.

Carrie McNulty (19:47)

interchangeable between that. And then there's going to be a few distinct differences there that really make one a personality disorder issue and the other based in complex trauma. But many mental health diagnoses are informed or impacted by complex trauma. And unfortunately, complex trauma is not a diagnosis in the DSM yet. So yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (19:48)

Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

Let's do that because we need a voice.

Carrie McNulty (20:09)

Yeah, let's

do that because it's a real thing and what a lot of people end up realizing they have. They go into therapy thinking...

one thing, right? And they're dealing with their symptoms. But then when we dig into it and go back and figure out where did these symptoms come from, because we want to try to find the root of things if there are, sometimes with things like anxiety disorder, there isn't. And sometimes with depression, there isn't. You can have the best life in the world and end up with both of those things. But oftentimes, if you go looking back, you can see

Sarah Wojdylak (20:32)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Carrie McNulty (20:42)

You know, things that you wouldn't think are trauma because when people think of trauma, they think of a car accident or an assault, or they think of a singular episode of something. Whereas complex trauma is smaller, very impactful still, traumas over a period of time that continue and really impact somebody. Yes, yes.

Sarah Wojdylak (20:48)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's like, not death, but like death by a thousand cuts, except sometimes the

cuts are like not by paper, it's by, you ever get like a paper cut from a folder? They're like that, yeah, ooh. Sometimes they're like that, I mean, yeah. It's the worst. Yeah, and so like there's trauma-informed language that places can use. can listen and they can understand instead of just immediately being like, that's not my department.

Carrie McNulty (21:08)

yes! yes! Visceral! Visceral reaction immediately there, yes!

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (21:27)

I don't do that. Like you do. You work with a lot of people who have mental health.

Carrie McNulty (21:28)

Well

Well, if you interact

with people, newsflash, that's your department. You know, like if you're going to be especially in an agency that caters to or treats individuals with mental health diagnoses or their families, then that is your business. That is what you do. And you need to be trauma informed. And it doesn't matter if we're whatever position you have there, whether it's a therapist, you're the administrator of the place, you are taking phone calls, whatever it is.

Sarah Wojdylak (21:37)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (22:02)

trauma-informed, at least, should be at the baseline, right?

Sarah Wojdylak (22:06)

Right, absolutely.

And so that mental health organization, I left it because I, they were just, was just opening up those little cuts, know, and that same thing of like, careful or hearing people be like, well, you can't recover from BPD or hearing people.

Carrie McNulty (22:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (22:32)

Yeah, just not listen. Like, this is a thing that happened to me. This is happening again. And then be like, well, you seem fine. Like, what does that, what does you seem fine mean? Yeah, of course I seem fine. I have to exist in the world, but that doesn't mean that I'm not like dealing with something. And that needs to be like listened to and fixed instead of, instead of everybody just being like, well, we don't do that. That is how it's always been.

Carrie McNulty (22:36)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

That's just how it is. That's how it's always been. That it's always been.

That's the catchphrase. Yes. Yep.

Sarah Wojdylak (23:02)

We have done this for 20 years. You know what I mean?

Like, I mean, like it's a different world now that it was 20. There's different, there's different.

Carrie McNulty (23:09)

Not for

some of those folks that are there. And again, this is not to put anybody down because I will tell you that I've done all different kinds of work in this field. And my first job was case management and it was working with individuals with serious and persistent mental health diagnoses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, major depression, all of the bigger, harder, more challenging diagnoses for people to live with.

That was the mantra a lot of the time is this is just how it's always been. This is just how we do things. This is just how, you know, and it doesn't leave a lot of space to make changes for what's happening. They got better with person centered language and we did a lot of trainings around that and those kinds of things, but that was 20 years ago. So if you're telling me that the same things are still happening now that were happening 20 years ago, that makes me really sad.

Sarah Wojdylak (23:56)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, at like the institutional level, that's what it seems like. This place that I left, happen to also, I don't know if it was at the time, but now they also happen to also do a lot of, what is it that they do?

Carrie McNulty (24:09)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (24:25)

I don't know, they take, they listen to, they ask patients their experience at one of the hospitals. And, but I can tell you at that hospital, like it was terrible. people didn't care. Well, number one, that was a very different time because you could, you could smoke in the hospital. Like, yeah, so many times, so many times during the day you could go to the nurse's station and be like, give me the lighter. And they'd be like, you can't have it for another one minute. Like, okay.

Carrie McNulty (24:29)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a while ago. Yeah, that's been a minute.

Sarah Wojdylak (24:51)

And then like 10 of us would go and sit in a room and just chain smoke until we weren't allowed in the room anymore. And that was like the highlight of the day. But it was a lot of like people sitting in a nurse's station talking about people, pathologizing people, bitching and like, yes, they absolutely deserve to have that. also like, you know, I'd be like, hey, this lady's just chugging orange juice out of the fridge. And I feel like I learned yesterday that she's diabetic.

Carrie McNulty (25:04)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (25:20)

Somebody stop her and they were like, that's what she does. Like, no, you're you're you're literally in charge. Anyway.

Carrie McNulty (25:27)

Yeah, yeah. Could you maybe just even

go and check in with her and just see if she's, yeah, what does she need? Is there something else?

Sarah Wojdylak (25:31)

Yeah, that's that

same that same lack of care about the person and just being like, that's just what they do and not checking in not showing any curiosity, not trying to like divert them or or just doing the work is is is

Carrie McNulty (25:38)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, know, either the people have been there

for too long and they're burnt out or whatever it is, but it's not a nice experience to be on the receiving side of that no matter what, you know? And people do get jaded after doing this for a long time, especially at that level, you know? But that's when you have to kind of look at yourself and say...

Sarah Wojdylak (25:57)

Right.

Right. Right.

Carrie McNulty (26:13)

Do I even want to be doing this anymore? Am I effective anymore? know, that's like individual work to do, but it is unfortunate that, and sucks, that people are going for support and they're getting, the humanity is not there anymore, or the empathy is not there anymore.

Sarah Wojdylak (26:17)

Right.

Right, right, right.

I,

had an experience of like helping out a support group and know people training other people to do support groups and it was just a guy who was who just he was like that's not this is the wrong page number and these are the wrong page and like people just dropping off they were leaving because that's not how you talk to people that's not therapeutic that's not helpful that's not encouraging to anybody and so you know watching people go into this with like a lot of hope and then being like oh this is just

Carrie McNulty (26:47)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (27:03)

A form, again, it's like a paperwork. Going back to paperwork and the forms and the structure of it, there has to be some allowance for humanity. There has to be some allowance to move forward and do things differently instead of the way that people did it 20 years ago. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (27:06)

Yeah.

agree 100 percent. think also

understanding that

meeting people where they are and with what they can do instead of being annoyed with the fact that they're struggling so much that maybe a form is hard for them at this point in time. Like maybe you verbally go through it with them and help them fill it out that way. you like, know, like meeting people where they are is really important and that's something that gets lost. Everybody assumes that you're coming in and not doing what you're asking to give them a hard time as opposed to being like, maybe they're just having a really hard time and this is the best they can do right

Sarah Wojdylak (27:34)

Yes.

Right.

Carrie McNulty (27:56)

now because they're having a mental health issue or crisis and you know instead of taking it like personally like you're not going to fill out my form well you know you're messing up my day now like what

Sarah Wojdylak (28:00)

Right.

I know, then the,

right, and then it becomes about them and their job. And I understand that almost the entire healthcare system is just like, how much paperwork can we shove downward? And no one wants to do paper, you know what I mean? I'm sure that after you speak to clients, you'd fill out just truckloads of paperwork. I've seen family members, they would do it on the weekend because they needed to focus on the actual person in their lives later.

Carrie McNulty (28:21)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (28:35)

That's just a problem. But then instead of them being responsible for filling out that, then it's up to the patient. And so what happens is it makes you kind of afraid to fill out the form. what, you know, I'm in a mental health crisis. I don't feel good. All these things are happening around me. I feel like absolute garbage, but my baseline is very confused. So to be given a form of like, have you felt this way for the last two weeks? Like, yes, I think, but also no, but like way more intent. You know what I mean?

Carrie McNulty (28:41)

Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Sarah Wojdylak (29:05)

having somebody talk you through that and what exactly they're they're looking for and what is this for is this why are you collecting this information from me is it just to cover your ass because that sucks is it just to put it in my file and do nothing about it why is that like is it is it to then find me where and find me where i am and and talk to me or is it just to pass me off to

Carrie McNulty (29:07)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (29:31)

whatever psychiatrist you happen to know or whatever, you know, that's probably not available because there aren't any available. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (29:35)

Yeah.

Yeah, or just even that explanation would be helpful. What am I filling this out for? Who does this go to? But sometimes when people ask those kinds of questions, then people get frustrated on the other end of like, this is just what we have to do. Just fill it out. It all comes down for 20 years. Everybody fills out this form. But I don't think it's unfair to ask why.

Sarah Wojdylak (29:45)

Mm-hmm.

It is, it is because that's what we've been doing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (30:05)

Client wise, I have a couple of people who are also therapists themselves and who are younger than me. And they have many different ideas about how they would like the mental health system to work. And they get really frustrated, especially doing agency work or starting out where you have to start out before you get your clinical license and feeling frustrated about that whole thing and coming up against that same, well, this is just how we do it, or this is how we've always done it. people not being open to different trainings or new information, or it's just really hard.

Sarah Wojdylak (30:35)

Yeah. And so I have this wealth of lived experience of finding all these different ways to make myself better, get better. And some of them are through medicine. Some of them are through therapy. Some of them are through just moving my body, making sure that my support structure is good. I had a point. Where was I going?

Carrie McNulty (30:36)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (31:06)

but I also like work wise, I have all this experience of like moving educational organizations forward and letting go of that thing that we have always done because done that way. I have this experience with like patient communication and how to, different, many, years. And so I think I went into this job thinking like I'm,

Carrie McNulty (31:11)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Sarah Wojdylak (31:35)

I'm gonna help. I'm gonna do a thing." then it was just, it was like, what are the page numbers? You should be careful not to fill out that form. These people don't get better. it made me feel terrible. It made me feel like there's not any hope. made me feel like I was an idiot. And so I left there because I was...

damaging my self-esteem. Like I have all this experience and you don't so much so that you seem to have a little bit of malice for actual people with mental illness. You know, I would go and try and talk to somebody, you know, according to our handbook and be like, this is happening, this is happening. And in trying to connect of like I have this mental illness, they would be like, yeah, well my son, he has that and he just does a lot of drugs. Like, well.

Carrie McNulty (32:07)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (32:30)

Is that what you think about people with mental illness? Is there just people who just sit around and do drugs? Like, I mean, probably that is the case in some cases, but like that can't be when you're going in to talk to somebody, you're gonna be like, hey, can I get paid more or anything like that to be presented with this, like the stigma. And then also to talk about how they are anti-stigma. It was blah, not.

Working at a mental health organization was not good for someone with mental health who has who is able to see outside of the like very tiny box that they've created for themselves so I and There was a there was a point in time where I was like sitting there and I was like doing some sort of I don't know database Making a form so that people fill out a form so that no one gets back to them about the form just for inform form making forms for people to give more people forms better hurry up and fill it out this time and

Carrie McNulty (32:59)

For your mental health. Yes. Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (33:26)

you know, and I was working from home and like a car came up onto the sidewalk outside my house. I could see it out of the corner of my eye and like a normal first thought would be like, no, but it like stopped. And my first thought was like, man, it didn't hit me. And I was like, and so, you know, I've been in this keeping my brain healthy game for a long time. So I know even though that like that feeling at the time, like felt good in like

Carrie McNulty (33:45)

Okay, time to go.

Sarah Wojdylak (33:55)

that in just in that depressed kind of way, also knew that that was not okay. And I was doing everything that I needed to. I was talking to a doctor, talking, making sure that my living space, making sure that I had enough sleep. And I was like, the problem is this thing that I do every day where people don't care. I just am stuck in a world of people who don't care. And that was kind of, know, and then the 15 year old self was like.

Carrie McNulty (34:00)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (34:25)

No! And so I just walked out of my job. So, yeah. So if anybody would like out there in podcast land, if anybody would like to hire a woman with a, that you've heard so far, all of this and.

Carrie McNulty (34:25)

you

Yeah, she was like, we're done with this. Goodbye. Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (34:47)

obviously loses what she's talking about 35 times a sentence. Get in touch with me, thanks. Yeah, phone a friend.

Carrie McNulty (34:54)

Reach out, reach out. You can send an email to my, it's always in the show notes,

my email's always there. If you want to reach out and be like, you know what, Sarah sounded like my jam. Yeah, please do. I think it's really, it's pretty, it's bold and courageous, I think, to say, especially living in the world that we're living in right now. And, you know, to be like, I don't know necessarily what comes next for me, but I can't do this anymore.

Sarah Wojdylak (35:05)

Yeah, please, please dear God. Yeah. So yeah, I'm

Carrie McNulty (35:22)

And that is like the ultimate taking care of yourself and your mental health move. know, it's like, I mean, you and I have talked before a little bit about just you've had lots of different jobs and you've made changes in life when you've needed to, but it really is a sign of ultimate self care to be like this place that I'm going every day is draining me. It's setting me back. And even though I don't necessarily know what comes next, I know I can't keep doing this.

Sarah Wojdylak (35:26)

Yes!

Yeah.

Yes,

yes. And yes, it is absolutely self-care, but it's also, like I have incredible friends who I think wanna murder me sometimes, because I have a lot. I'm just not for everybody all the time. And so, I stayed with some friends who have just like, brothers fought the same way, but like I stayed with them for a little while when I was like trying to like.

Carrie McNulty (36:02)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wojdylak (36:18)

gather some money to be able to get my apartment and, you know, just rebuild my life after some weird stuff. And, you know, and I have other friends that are like, I will help you with co-signing on your lease because, you know, like I trust you. I know that you're good person and that you're gonna figure it out. I've been meeting with, you I just had a friend that helped me with my resume yesterday. And she also had had like multiple different jobs and was...

Carrie McNulty (36:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

cool.

Sarah Wojdylak (36:49)

move, you know, had moved around and just been like, I'm not doing this anymore. This makes me feel bad. And, and that that honestly was really, really helpful to hear that and she was like, I wouldn't have gotten some of the other jobs if I hadn't left the first one because I needed that that comfortability to be to be gone. comfortability is absolutely gone.

Carrie McNulty (36:54)

Mm-hmm.

You're like, well, to be

clear, universe, not comfortable at all anymore. So got the message. I did the thing. I got out of the bad situation. I feel the discomfort. The doors are open. What comes next? Yeah. Cause I always say to people, I'm like, well, you know, the universe will reciprocate if you take the first step. just to be clear, universe, Sarah has in fact taken the first step and she's ready for reciprocation now and now.

Sarah Wojdylak (37:14)

All right, to be clear, to be clear, please hire me.

Right?

Please help us universe Yeah I mean, I probably have a lot of karma points against me. So I can't really I'm really really asking a lot universe, but come on I Think ultimately like I have to keep trusting myself and not putting myself into these like small boxes keep trusting myself keep reaching out

Carrie McNulty (37:41)

That's the rule, right? I did the thing, now you reciprocate. That's the rule. So...

you

Yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (38:09)

keep going, but it can't be in a place where my experience doesn't, at anything, doesn't matter at all. Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (38:23)

Yeah,

I mean, to your point earlier of when people have never dealt with anything mental health wise.

They don't know how to treat or respond to people who have and it is like a different language and it is a whole different way of being

Sarah Wojdylak (38:41)

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (38:42)

And, you know, sometimes I do kind of worry for those folks who haven't had many life challenges because when things get tough, they maybe won't be as prepared, you know, because I'll tell you honestly and truly that some of the funniest, smartest, most interesting, amazing people that I've had the opportunity to know and or work with or play with, and we're talking about improv, whatever, have been people who have had real serious life struggles and issues and mental health diagnoses.

Sarah Wojdylak (38:52)

Right? Right.

Yeah.

Carrie McNulty (39:13)

and they are just these full, rich, amazing, fun people, you know? And it's not, it doesn't preclude them from awesome things happening in their life. I think it adds to the richness of their life and their ability to pivot and to make decisions like you just made. Like, hey, I've been in this place before, I know what I need to do for me. And it may be, you know, anybody who's more like...

Sarah Wojdylak (39:19)

Right? Right?

Right, right.

Carrie McNulty (39:39)

maybe hasn't dealt with these struggles before would be like, don't leave a job if you don't have something lined up right away. That's the responsible way of doing this. And I'm using a voice for that as responsible.

Sarah Wojdylak (39:46)

Yeah.

That is responsible, responsible self has that voice, yes.

Carrie McNulty (39:54)

But it's not what you know about you, because you trust your gut, and you trust your instincts, and you know what you need. And that, I think, is key. You have an intuitive ability to know.

Sarah Wojdylak (40:06)

Right, my body

and my existence knows what to do better than the system does. And just gotta go off system.

Carrie McNulty (40:16)

Yeah.

Well, think anybody who's working in mental health that assumes that they know more about the people that are coming in than those folks know about themselves, it's a problem. In fact, big red flag for anybody listening, if you go to see a provider and they're like, I know everything that you need and we need to forget everything you think you've learned about yourself, run away, run away, run away. Don't fill out the form, run away.

Sarah Wojdylak (40:40)

Right. Right. Tell them fuck

your form.

Carrie McNulty (40:44)

If anybody encourages you ever to not advocate for yourself, that's a problem too, because we all have to do that. Everybody has to do that, especially if we're going to the doctor or going someplace else. You got to do your own research. You kind of have to know your own stuff and mental health is no different. You know?

Sarah Wojdylak (41:00)

Right. And if you do

advocate for yourself and people are like, well, that's the way we've always done it. Like, that is not for you. That is what we have learned. That's not for you.

Carrie McNulty (41:07)

No. Yeah, and that's also

a flak and it's usually a red one. So yeah, yeah.

Sarah Wojdylak (41:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

mean, I talk about this place that I left, it was totally bad. were really great people, human beings just trying to make a living and all of that. But if you are trying to make a living in an area where you feel actual malice or you just don't care about the humans in the human service that you are working in,

Carrie McNulty (41:23)

No.

Yeah.

Don't do it.

Sarah Wojdylak (41:41)

Go somewhere else. Make room for people who really do care and really do want to make a change, see a change. Do something different.

Carrie McNulty (41:43)

go do

yeah. And

Well, I, again, love that you came on. I'm excited. And thank you for telling your story too and just taking the leap to find the next thing that's for you. And again, anybody listening that has ideas for Sarah, send me an email, hit me up, see what we can do.

Sarah Wojdylak (42:11)

Yeah, send us an email. What does,

what can WWC, what can, ugh, whatever. WCSD, what can Sarah do? I'm just kidding. I'm applying for a bunch, I'm applying for a bunch of stuff in like training, some education. I'll keep on trudging forward. Yes, that doesn't make me wish a, a, a,

Carrie McNulty (42:25)

Yeah, yeah, and then add it.

That's cool.

you'll find your place in.

for bad things. Yeah,

yeah, take care, everybody. And take care, Bye.

Sarah Wojdylak (42:44)

Carrie.