The Swearing Therapist: Authenticity in Healing with Zulma Williams

In this episode of Carrie's Always Talking, Carrie speaks with Zulma Williams, a breast cancer survivor and therapist, about her journey from accounting to therapy. They discuss the importance of storytelling, the challenges of overcoming trauma, and the significance of finding the right therapist-client fit. Zulma shares her unique approach as the 'swearing therapist' and emphasizes the need for authenticity in therapy. The conversation also touches on cultural influences on abuse awareness, the empowerment that comes from therapy, and the importance of taking action in one's life. Zulma's insights on trauma work and the commitment required in therapy provide listeners with valuable perspectives on personal growth and resilience. There is profanity in the episode, but there is also levity and connection. 

https://open.spotify.com/show/62zkFh5mzb5mkScrew0HCX?si=f89e38a1ec084d63
www.acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com

https://www.dragonflytherapyservices.net/

If you have a story you'd like to tell, send me an email at carrie.always.talking@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.

You can also find me on Bluesky- @carrie-is-talking.bsky.social 

www.youtube.com/@carrie-always-talking

Transcript

Carrie McNulty (00:01)

Welcome back to Carrie's Always Talking. I'm your host Carrie McNulty. This is the podcast all about stories and connections. I believe that when people share their stories with one another, it's the main way that we build empathy and humanity with one another. And that's something that I think we need a lot more of in the world today. I do have a guest with me on the episode today. ⁓ This is episode six, season two. I know I had said I might do a solo episode, but I could do that anytime.

I got the opportunity to interview somebody who was absolutely delightful to talk to, and I think that you will really enjoy her episode. Her name is Zulma Williams, and she owns her own private practice in Nevada, and it's called Dragonfly Therapy Services. She sort of coins herself as the swearing therapist, and you will definitely hear a lot of swearing in the episode today, but it's very fun and good-natured. ⁓ She tells her story.

that really spans from everything from having breast cancer and overcoming that to being in a relationship that was abusive at one point. And then really one of the things I find most interesting is making the choice to switch her career at the age of 46 and what she's been able to build for herself as a therapist since that time. Like I said, she was super fun to talk to. We also talk a lot about the therapy modalities that she uses and some of the benefits that she sees for her.

clients so it's got a lot packed into this episode but I do think that you'll enjoy it. As always I want to thank anybody who's listening and encourage you to follow and review the podcast. I'm always so happy anytime anyone wants to spend a little time with me so please rate and review if you can and I also want to continue to ask people if you are able to

and have the means to, if you would join me in donating to your local food bank, that's something I'm doing monthly. I do think that food insecurity is a real thing and I don't think that food is something that anybody should have to go without. So if you're able to join me in that, this is a little bit of a call to action there. In the show notes today, I'm gonna include some of Zulma's information so you can see ⁓ her social media and her website if you're interested in learning more.

And with that, I'm not going to keep us waiting too much longer. Let's go ahead and get into the conversation.

Carrie McNulty (02:39)

Hi, Zulma

Zulma Williams (02:40)

Hi Kerry, how are you?

Carrie McNulty (02:42)

I'm well, thank you so much for reaching out to come on. I'm very excited to talk to you today.

Zulma Williams (02:48)

Same here.

Carrie McNulty (02:49)

So it turns out in reading your profile we actually had a few things in common which was you know one of the things that caught my eye. ⁓ You are both a breast cancer survivor and also an LCSW and you have your own practice. ⁓ So let's start with any one of those things. Tell me your story.

Zulma Williams (03:04)

Yes!

Let's do it.

So how I was working in accounting in a big corporation and I was 42 when I started thinking about my future and I'm like, I love numbers, but I always had this gift if you would to help out. Like I had people coming to me and telling me like, ⁓

I never share this with anybody and I'm like, okay, well, I better start fucking charging for it, you know, like, so what do I need to do in order to start charging? And the first step was to do a bachelor of social work because my school at that time had the advanced master of social work. So in order to take the advanced masters, I needed to have a bachelor's of social work. So I enroll in a school.

And I graduated at 46. I was on track to continue with my masters. And six weeks after graduating with my Bachelor of Social Work, I got diagnosed with breast cancer. Surprise, right? Like life is that thing that happens when you have other plans, right? Like so ⁓ clearly I took a break ⁓ from higher education. I'm from Argentina originally, so I moved back.

Carrie McNulty (04:19)

Yeah.

Always.

Zulma Williams (04:35)

to Argentina, to be with my family. And then after three years of being there, I'm like, I don't fucking remember why I moved to the States. So I'm like, I want to go back to the States. So I started thinking, well, I wanted to celebrate my 50th birthday here in the States. So I started planning on coming back in.

Carrie McNulty (04:43)

I don't want to do this.

Zulma Williams (05:04)

I ask God for a sign. Is this the right thing to do? And careful what you ask for. So out of nowhere, you know how in the school you have your university ⁓ email when you are a student, but because I wasn't a student for three years at this point, they deactivated my email from the school. But out of nowhere, I get an email on my personal email.

Carrie McNulty (05:12)

You

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (05:33)

from the school saying, hey, we have the Master of Social Work program, the advanced one, back, do you wanna enroll? I was like, ⁓ bitch, you asked for the sign, you got a banner, you know? So I was like, yes, I'm in, so I enroll in. The advantage of the advanced program is that it's only one year. And at this point,

Carrie McNulty (05:49)

Yeah, there it is.

Zulma Williams (06:02)

almost 50, right? Like I started my program at 49 and 11 months, right? Like I started one month prior to turning 50. So I'm like, and I knew that I wanted to be a therapist. So I'm like, there's no need to be fucking toying around and not getting it done. So I enrolled ⁓ and I graduated in a year. And then I did my internship and then I became independent of my license and so on and so forth.

One thing that I want to ⁓ remark is when I started the Bachelor of Social Work program, I continued to work in accounting because a lot of times we had this black and white thinking that, my God, I had to drop everything. And no, I still needed to fucking pay rent. So I continue my job while in parallel, I'm building a different future.

Carrie McNulty (06:51)

Right.

Zulma Williams (06:58)

I had to start from scratch. And it's like, no, you don't have to destroy what you have in order to start building something different, right?

Carrie McNulty (07:07)

Yes, I think that's

a great message. So you're pivoting a little but you're still using all the skills that you had to make it work. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (07:14)

Absolutely. And I

thought, if social work doesn't work out for me, I always have accounting. It's not like I'm erasing that part of my brain. It's like, okay, well, if this shit doesn't work, like I can always work out and nobody's taking that away from me. So for our listeners, it's like, take that leap of faith. If it doesn't work, you are back where you started. What do you have to lose? But I...

Carrie McNulty (07:40)

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (07:41)

Rather took that step than stay home and be thinking like, ⁓ what if, right? Like, what if I would have enrolled in a school, right? And then with a cancer diagnosis, it came to show me how bad I wanted to be a therapist because it didn't stop me. It only delayed me, right? I wanted to be absolutely.

Carrie McNulty (07:59)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It could have completely thrilled you, but it didn't. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (08:06)

I wanted to be independently licensed by age 50. Well, I started my masters at age 50. Who the fuck cares? You're fucking old anyway. You know what I mean?

Carrie McNulty (08:16)

Yeah, nobody's going to be like, well, you know, she's 50.

Zulma Williams (08:18)

It took

three and a half years later, right.

Carrie McNulty (08:22)

We would have had it at 48, then we would talk. But no, no, you're so...

Zulma Williams (08:25)

Right,

right. So the thing is that in our profession, being on the older side is an asset. Because when I was an intern, I was 51 as an intern and my colleagues were 25. Nobody, no client ever questioned me about like if I gave a suggestion on parenting or whatever. They didn't question, I don't have kids. If you would have asked me, I'd tell you the truth, but they assumed because I'm fucking old.

Carrie McNulty (08:35)

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (08:55)

kids, I don't have kids. You know, so, then my

colleague will come. She, she was probably 25 at the time. She looks 13. So she, the clients were good. Why do you have kids? Nobody ever asked me that. And she, she used to get so pissed and I'll be like, keep breathing. You're going to get to my age, you know, like, so, but the thing is that.

Carrie McNulty (09:10)

You alright?

Zulma Williams (09:22)

It came to show me how bad I wanted to be a therapist, because nobody would blame me if I'm like, no, I'm going back to accounting or I'm working with my bachelor's or whatever. But I was like, no, I want to do this. So when I have clients telling me, ⁓ I'm too old to go to, I'm like, motherfucker, you are barking at the wrong tree. I started at 42.

Carrie McNulty (09:46)

Right, you can't say that.

Zulma Williams (09:48)

I started

at 50 and English is not my first language. What is your fucking excuse?

Carrie McNulty (09:53)

Well, and I think it's amazing that you, mean, think tenacity and determination would probably be the words that I would say describe you just even after meeting you, you know, today. ⁓ It's like, if you want it, you're going to go for it. And I think you could inspire so many people because there are people who think it's too late for me or I shouldn't bother or it's too big of a risk. But in the world that we're living in right now, we need to have hope and take risks.

for things. We need to be able to pivot. And I think your message is so important now in particular for people to hear that really can't. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (10:21)

Yes.

⁓ Absolutely. Thank

you for that. like people are like, I'm not, you know, like I'm personally, I believe the motivation is so overrated because you have been done shit all your life that you were not motivated to do, but you, you got it done, right? Like, so it's not motivation is discipline, right? Is the determination as you mentioned. So it's like, it's not about motivation. You, you need to become Nike and just do it.

Carrie McNulty (10:38)

Yeah. ⁓

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, and interestingly, that's, I find myself having that conversation a lot with clients who are depressed is that it isn't about waiting for you to feel motivated to do it. It's that activation is the answer. So it's ⁓ acting as if and doing it, even though you know, you're really not feeling it. But if you want it to be different, you've got to do whatever. ⁓

Zulma Williams (11:09)

Absolutely.

something different, right? And

especially for mothers, right? For women who are mothers. you deliver the baby, you are in fucking pain. You cannot fucking pee without burning and blah, blah, I don't have kids, but I have friends who have children for me. So I'm like, thank you for telling me.

Carrie McNulty (11:30)

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (11:41)

And you don't look at the baby when the baby's crying and saying that, yeah, you know what, I'm not motivated to breastfeed you. You fucking get up and you do it, right? So you, you been to work when the last thing that you wanted to do was get out of bed. You took that shower when you didn't want to. So clearly you've been doing shit your entire life that you were not motivated to do.

Carrie McNulty (11:47)

Yeah.

Life is full of

every day, things we have to do that we don't want to do. All day long, constantly. And it would be nice sometimes to indulge in that idea that we don't want to do anything if we're not enjoying it, we don't want to do it. But I mean, that unfortunately is 80 % of life. ⁓

Zulma Williams (12:22)

say you don't have to do anything. The only thing that you have to do is pay taxes and die and the first one is optional, right?

So it's like you don't have to do shit, but there are consequences for your choices.

Carrie McNulty (12:34)

Right.

every

every inaction also has a consequence yeah if you don't do it there's also a consequence to that if you don't make the decision the universe makes it for you and sometimes it's not what you want yes definitely

Zulma Williams (12:47)

Yes, it's not pretty,

right? Like, so I had to go to work. No, you don't have to, but if you don't want to be homeless, then maybe it's a good idea that you fucking put up with this job that you might not like. But again, like what are you doing in order to build a different future, right? Because the only thing that I'm doing is complaining about this toxic environment, but not.

Carrie McNulty (13:13)

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (13:15)

looking forward to doing something again in parallel, like, okay, then you're going to change the toxic environment with another toxic environment, basically. Right? So.

Carrie McNulty (13:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, I think it's amazing that you changed careers. Something very different, too. Accounting is really nothing like I would think being there. ⁓

Zulma Williams (13:36)

It's so black and white, right? Like,

two plus two is four here in Argentina, in China, and dealing with emotions and with people and with human beings. you're like, you don't, you never know how your day is going to be being a therapist, right? Right.

Carrie McNulty (13:44)

Yes!

No, it's always different. It's always

different. And another thing I would say is that I think if you're going to be a therapist, you have to probably be used to not looking at something at the end of the day and saying, here's what I've accomplished. Whereas if you're doing something like accounting, it is very tangible. You're doing these things, and there's a pile of whatever you just completed sitting there for you. Whereas if you're doing therapy, the progress that you're making with clients isn't always evident. ⁓

And sometimes it's much slower, right? So you have to be willing to hang with the process with your clients. You're not going to always at the end of the day being like, here's what I accomplished. It's really, it's more about the relationships than it is what you have in your hand.

Zulma Williams (14:37)

And we rarely

get to see because usually when the clients are making progress, they graduate from therapy, right? So we don't get to see the full recovery or how they are thriving and our ethics prohibit us from fucking reaching out to them. So it's like, and I tell my clients when they graduate, I'm like, please, I cannot reach out to you. Please send me a text once in a while. Let me know how you are doing, right? Like, right.

Carrie McNulty (15:01)

us.

We love to get an email or a text that just says,

hey, here's what's going on. ⁓ It's always so nice to hear back from people.

Zulma Williams (15:12)

Yes,

absolutely.

Carrie McNulty (15:15)

So tell me more about the kind of clients you like to see. I noticed that you're sort of the way that you're labeling yourself is the swearing therapist. So tell me more about the kind of clients that you like to see and who do you like to work with.

Zulma Williams (15:25)

Yes.

My ideal client is a highly motivated adult who is experiencing anxiety, depression, or trauma. ⁓ I can't know what this is you more than you do. So if you're not ready to do the work, I'm not the therapist for you. I call myself the sweating therapist because I like to keep it real and I sweat a lot. So I'm not going to be like, fudge. I'm going to say fuck.

Carrie McNulty (15:37)

Yes.

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (15:58)

Right? Like I'm gonna call, I'm not gonna say, oh, B, I'm gonna say bitch, right? Like when I do the 15 minute consultation, fuck shit and bitch is gonna come out of my mouth. So if you have a problem with that, I give you referrals. It doesn't have to be with me, but I'm not, I didn't work so hard to have my own practice for me to sit there in my own fucking office and be like, oh.

Carrie McNulty (15:59)

Bye.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (16:25)

fudge, like, no, I'm going to tell you, you know, like I use a lot of, CBT. So when I'm explaining a concept, let's say personalizing, right. Like I'm explaining the concept of personalizing to the client. and I can see the faces and I'm like,

I know what you're thinking, this bitch, like he did it to me. I'm like, no, I understand, but hear me out, right? Like so, and I'm not calling the client a bitch. I'm saying bitch in general, right? Like I call myself a bitch. if I, you know, so my client, the clients that I have, they love my direct approach, but my direct approach is not for everybody, right? So.

Carrie McNulty (17:05)

yeah, I can see that, yeah. But I think it's

good to give people an authentic heads up, hey, here's who I am, this is how I operate. You will always get the truth from me, you will always get who I am, right.

Zulma Williams (17:17)

Absolutely.

So I tell them, you will get my truth of how I see the things, and not necessarily the truth, right? But it's like how I perceive what you just told me. And my job as a therapist is to give you a different perspective, because when you are in the picture, you cannot see the picture. But it doesn't mean that I'm telling the truth.

Carrie McNulty (17:26)

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (17:45)

You know, it's an it's an opinion and we are going to this. Like I barely know what the fuck to do with my own life. Let alone tell you what to do with yours. So we are going to discover the fucking answers together. Even the questions we are going to discover together. Right. Because sometimes we don't know what to ask. And it's like, OK, let's figure it out together. So. If you are not.

Carrie McNulty (17:59)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (18:14)

highly motivated, if you don't want to get better, I'm not the therapist for you. And either way, I fucking sleep at night because I'm not taking it personal. If we didn't work out, you saw that you were ready to do therapy and then you realize that it's not gonna be with me, I'll give you the referrals because I want you to get better. Again, it doesn't have to be with me. But...

Carrie McNulty (18:18)

Hmm.

Yeah.

And that

is a sign of real maturity in doing this work. I think when people are just starting out, they really feel bad when somebody decides it's not a match or they need to switch, right? But when you've been doing it a while and when you feel confident in your own skills and abilities, you know what really is about the client and whatever they need is our job to facilitate them getting that. If it's not with us, then we help facilitate finding somebody who would be a really good fit. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (19:04)

It's about

the client's wellbeing. doesn't, again, it doesn't have to be with me, right? Like, so I do a lot of networking events and I want to connect with other therapists because then I can be like, you know what, call Carrie. She's going to be perfect for you, right? Because like one of the main reasons why I opened my own private practice is because I was telling the clinical directors in community mental health.

Don't give me mood disorders. I'm not comfortable without. Don't give me personality disorder. Here comes the fucking mood disorder. And it's like, it is my ethical responsibility to provide the best care for the client. And I don't connect with those issues. So I cannot help the client to the best of my ability.

Carrie McNulty (19:52)

Right, we can't specialize in everything, right? And our interests don't lie at everything. And that's why I'm always grateful that there are people who really like to maybe work with kids. That's not my thing, right? I'm so grateful that there are people who love doing it and are so great at it that I can say, this is who you want to see, you know? ⁓

Zulma Williams (20:10)

Right? And

you know, life is so short. Why the fuck do you want to waste your time and money with someone? Like go get the help that you need. If you have heart issues, you're not going to go to the fucking gynecologist. You're going to call a cardiologist, right? And even if you go to the gynecologist, I hope that that doctor will refer you to a fucking cardiologist because that's what you need. Right?

Carrie McNulty (20:20)

Yeah.

Right.

That's not the best.

Zulma Williams (20:39)

So it's like, if you don't know, let me help you find the answers, right? We're going to discover this together. But if I'm a gynecologist, I'm not going to be checking your heart, right? So it's the same with therapy, but I think that a lot of people, as you mentioned, are afraid to say no you have

Carrie McNulty (20:44)

Yeah

Zulma Williams (21:02)

to respect the client and you have to respect yourself to provide the best service that you can give.

Carrie McNulty (21:07)

Well, yes, because at the end of the day, no matter what modalities we all choose to use, still the number one determinator of how well somebody does in therapy is the relationship they have with their therapist. So if their difference is there at the start, the outcome's not going to be as well for the client. It's not going to turn out as well for them. So ⁓ yeah, I think that's huge.

Zulma Williams (21:19)

Absolutely.

Bye!

So yeah, tell the clients, this is what you get. mean, the way that I'm talking to you is the way that I'm talking to my clients, right? Like, so it's like, this is what you get and it might not be for you, but And unfortunately, there is so much need.

Carrie McNulty (21:35)

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (21:45)

for good providers. So it's like, you know, we have to get into that abundance mentality that I give you the client because that's what's the best for the client. And then the right client for me is gonna show up at my doorstep, right?

Carrie McNulty (21:59)

Yeah.

You know, you, I could speak for myself too, but my guess is that anybody that becomes a therapist, there's been things that have happened in their life that have sort of drawn them to that career.

Right, be it their own mental health history or family dynamics that were more challenging or maybe roles they were put in in their family where they sort of already had the ability to be the person that listens and deescalates and whatever, right? So for me, I kind of know that that was my calling from the time I was little. It was either be a talk show host, which I get to kind of do with this right now, or, you know, I wanted to be, you know, a therapist because I always kind of was that.

you know, it's talking to people was my thing. For you, what was that, what made you go, yes, accounting wasn't for you and you had people wanting to tell you more of their stories and you're like, this is really interesting and I'm good at this. But is there any part of your history that also maybe had led you to where we are now?

Zulma Williams (22:53)

Right?

Absolutely. Everything that you have named. like, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family, I was in an abusive relationship and I didn't know I was being abused. And this sounds so, it's kind of like, what? You didn't know you were being abused. I was working with a therapist and I was probably 36 or 37. So it's not like I'm a young girl and I don't know about life.

and I was very depressed. was suicidal. and, my therapist at the time, she said, yeah, you are being abused. And I was like, no, you're mistaken. He doesn't touch me. Right. Cause in my head being abused is like, beat the shit out of you and I sent you to the hospital. So I was being verbally abused, emotionally abused, sexually abused. And I was internalizing that.

and making it my fault, right? And my therapist was so paramount in my recovery because she explained to me like, we are gonna work on you because if you change, then the relationship cannot stay the same, right?

Carrie McNulty (24:28)

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (24:29)

because we are like, oh, why is he an asshole, blah, blah, blah. It's not the issue. It's like, why are you attracting that asshole and keeping that asshole in your life? Right? I'm paraphrasing. My therapist doesn't talk like me, but, but that inspired me to, was like, oh my God, I want to bring awareness to the community about the different types of abuse because being Hispanic, it is so,

Carrie McNulty (24:34)

I'm a little bit a drummer.

Thanks.

Zulma Williams (24:59)

ingrained in our culture that whatever the man says goes, right? Like, and you shut up and you sit pretty and you don't have a voice. It was so ingrained that I was like, ⁓ shit, right. That's why I'm thinking that abuse is physical abuse because it's the only one that I learned growing up. And I was like,

wow, I wanna do what you do and I wanna help people.

and also I believe that I have a gift that is I hear what is not being said. I had a client recently, I was doing the initial assessment.

And I ⁓ asked her, I do you feel guilty, a young girl, ⁓ mid-20s Hispanic? And I said, do you feel guilty? And she kind of like, look at me weird and didn't respond. And then she continued her story. And then she said that her mom got pregnant with her when her mom was a teenager.

I'm like, remember when I asked you if you were feeling guilty? This is what the fuck I'm talking about. Like this is not your responsibility.

Carrie McNulty (26:09)

Yeah.

Right, you've

been given the message either implicitly or explicitly or through intergenerational trauma, which we already have these messages sort of built into us before we even get here. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (26:23)

Right.

So I'm like, ⁓ you know, like, so you are talking and I'm, and I'm very present that it does another thing, which I love private practice because number one, I get to choose my clients, right? Who I work with. And number two, I see six clients a day when you well know in, in, community mental health, you see 11 or 10 every day,

Carrie McNulty (26:34)

Okay.

which is nice.

As

Zulma Williams (26:49)

I do take the notes because it's part of the job and it's the ethical thing to do and all that shit, but I know who you are versus when I was seeing 11 people a day and then I don't see you for three weeks. I better make a good posting note about who the fuck you are because I'm not going to remember. I don't have that issue since I created my own practice.

Carrie McNulty (27:01)

It's very hard.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, I agree. Six people a day is the most I like to do in my practice too. Just because it's what I have the energy for. think.

The people that are able to do more good for them, but I've never been able to because I feel like much like you, I really am picking up on every single thing that people are putting out. And it's a lot of energy to stay present with that and to constantly be thinking, holding what they're saying and thinking ahead and putting pieces together and reflecting back. And it's, it's a lot of work, but really great work, you know, it's really fulfilling work. It's just.

Zulma Williams (27:54)

Right, when I tell people that I work with trauma, they're like, my God, like that. I'm like, no, I see trauma as an opportunity to help. Because if I sit there with you and I cry with you, we are not gonna get in anywhere. But I see what you are, experiencing as an opportunity to help you. So when you are telling me one of the most traumatic events in your life, I'm like.

Carrie McNulty (27:54)

demanding. Yeah.

Yes.

Zulma Williams (28:19)

Okay, let's work on that, let's process that so it doesn't own you anymore. You own the event, the event doesn't own you. Which I, going back to my cancer diagnosis, my motto is I had cancer, cancer didn't have me. And you can apply that to any challenge. I had trauma, the trauma didn't have me, right? And I will help you with that.

Carrie McNulty (28:35)

You

Right.

Zulma Williams (28:44)

It's like the traumatic, the abusive relationship, the cancer diagnosis, immigrated into the United States, the dysfunctional family are all part of who I am now.

So it's like, okay, you know, you fucking deal with what you have to deal with. Like we all experience trauma.

So it's kind of like, when I tell my clients like, yeah, because my therapist said, they're like, you go to therapy, my motherfucking I'm human. Like, of course I go to therapy. Any good therapist has her own therapist. And they said, like, do you talk about me? I'm like, the last thing that I fucking talk to my therapist about is my own clients. I talk about my own fucking shit.

Carrie McNulty (29:25)

Thank

if I wanted to do that. I'm not talking to my therapist about that.

Zulma Williams (29:32)

yes, I do go to therapy because I see we all need that neutral perspective that only a therapist can give you. If friend is naturally going to be on your side, right? And be like, yeah, he's a fucking asshole. A therapist will be like, he's an asshole. Why you say that you are attracting assholes? Let's explore that.

Carrie McNulty (29:47)

Mm-hmm.

Right?

That's who you attract. What about that behavior, you know, calling to you that you keep picking these people, right? And I always say too, like, there are people who are naturally predatory that know who to pick as well. So when you say I was being abused and I didn't know I was being abused, I think that happens to women a lot and not because of their own inability to see what's going on in their life, but their vulnerability has already been clocked.

Zulma Williams (30:00)

Right!

Carrie McNulty (30:25)

and the people who are coming into the picture are aware of that more so than the woman might be. And that isn't her fault, right? when you know and you understand, then you can make the change. But it's not like people are willingly staying in situations always where they know what's going on and that that isn't their shortcoming. That is...

Sometimes people around them seek them out. think when people have had a lot of trauma, can almost be like a target on them that they don't realize.

Zulma Williams (30:51)

And also how the abuse develops, right? Because it's not like overnight the guy becomes an asshole. It's like, I'm going out with my friends on Friday. ⁓ really? We don't spend that much time together. Why don't you stay and we watch a movie, right? And then I become isolated. ⁓ you want to go to your mom? Like your sister doesn't like me.

Carrie McNulty (30:55)

No

Right.

right, yep.

Zulma Williams (31:19)

Right?

So it's like, ⁓ he wants to spend time with me. Right, right, right? And then when you realize you are isolated, you don't have friends, you are ashamed, so you don't talk to your family about what's going on because you think that you are the issue, right? And then as I started building my self-esteem, I was like,

Carrie McNulty (31:22)

Oh, he loves me so much. He wants all my time. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Zulma Williams (31:44)

my God, I'm going to be so aware of the red flags moving forward because that's what you learn, right? Because you're not going to be such an easy target anymore because you learn this. Right.

Carrie McNulty (31:50)

Yeah.

Right, you're stronger, right? You're

more confident in yourself. And if something doesn't feel right, you don't, I always tell people don't, yeah.

Zulma Williams (32:04)

You believe it, right?

Because we have betrayed our gut feeling.

Carrie McNulty (32:11)

Yes, absolutely, all the time. And I think women have such a strong intuition that we, over time, learn to not listen to. But once you start to feel that feeling, trust it, because thinking about who that person could be versus who they're showing you they are is always a trap. It's always a trap.

Zulma Williams (32:28)

Right, right. You are in love with the potential,

not what was in front of you. And when people know me now, I mean, this was some 20 years prior. And when they know me now and they're like, I cannot believe that. Yeah, exactly, because I fucking worked so hard on me and my development to not be that victim anymore.

Carrie McNulty (32:50)

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (32:51)

and I think it's also, I'm going to be 60 soon. And I'm like, I don't give a shit anymore. Like for a long time, I'm like, I don't, I don't even remember the last time that I gave a shit. Like I am who I am. I don't want to offend people on purpose, like I don't want to hurt anybody. It's not like, Oh, I am who I am.

Carrie McNulty (33:10)

Thank

Zulma Williams (33:14)

and if we are not aligned, it's fine. Right.

Carrie McNulty (33:17)

It's okay. Yeah, it's okay. We don't all

have aligned and we can all be respectful of each other, but we don't always have to agree on everything or make something work if it doesn't, That's the beauty of being, a woman, in midlife because you don't stress so much about if you don't fit in. You don't stress so much if you're being viewed in a certain light. You're just really more comfortable.

being yourself you're okay with it yeah

Zulma Williams (33:42)

in your own skin. Right.

Right. And I'm like, ⁓ shit, I really don't give a shit. Like, it's beautiful. Like.

Carrie McNulty (33:54)

You're like, let me go back and check my date book for the last time I gave a shit. Nope, can't find it.

Zulma Williams (33:59)

Amen,

right. Like, I'm like, okay. I wish that, I can inspire my clients to get to that point. I mean, it's your own process, but eventually to get to that point,

Carrie McNulty (34:12)

you

it's very freeing to be able to move through life and not be so self-conscious

Zulma Williams (34:22)

on shit that you cannot control too So it's like I have no control over what you feel or think about me. So it's like, you know what?

Carrie McNulty (34:30)

Right, Well, I

say none of our business what people think about us and that's.

Zulma Williams (34:35)

Exactly.

But if I learn to make myself happy, because if I'm fulfilled, then I'm going to be a better therapist and a better person and a better daughter and a better partner and a better friend, right? So it is so freeing to be yourself and to make no apologies for that.

Carrie McNulty (34:48)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, I 100 % agree. And I think it's great that you keep that in mind when you're working with your clients.

it's nice that you're giving that message, especially if you're getting to work with a lot of adult women as well, that they can see what you are doing and how you operate in the world and sort of emulate that for them too, which is really cool.

Zulma Williams (35:15)

Right. I

want to believe that I'm leading by example, right? I'm not telling you to do, oh, you need to go to the gym. Okay, let's go together. No, no, I don't fucking go to the gym. need to like, no, if I tell you that you can go to school is because I fucking did it. Right.

Carrie McNulty (35:26)

Yeah. ⁓

You did it, yes. And you did it

at a time where that wouldn't have been typical, you know, or people don't think it's typical. I know I went back to grad school and it's so silly now when I think about it because I was 29 when I went back and I remember thinking, am I going to be able to do this? This seems like it's, you know, is my brain going to...

Zulma Williams (35:35)

Okay, bye!

Wow.

Carrie McNulty (35:48)

Am I going to be able to do this? Because a lot of my people in my cohort were directly out of undergrad and they didn't have any work experience, you know, they didn't. And so here I am having lived in another country, ⁓ worked doing mental health case management for, you know, six years, worked in mental health in another country. And I'm like, I got a lot of experience under my belt, but I wasn't sure if I could academically hang. And then I got cancer after my first semester. I was like, well, the universe is like, well, can you do it with cancer? And I was like, yeah, I guess I can.

Zulma Williams (36:12)

Wow.

Carrie McNulty (36:18)

I just stayed in my program while I did chemo and my surgeries and it was a very interesting time, but it really, like you said, showed me how much I wanted to do it. And it was helping me get through my treatment because it was guideposts along the way of like, something else to think about and motivation to keep going. you know, I think that not.

Zulma Williams (36:33)

Wow, I love that, yes!

Congratulations, that made me so happy because it's

like, you know, we are talking based on experience. It's like, and I, and I tell my clients, it's not like I'm this fucking pollyanna or everything is going to be okay. Look at your own fucking life and everything that you had overcome up until now, you did it. Nobody did it for you. So why you say that this

Carrie McNulty (36:56)

you

Hmm?

Zulma Williams (37:07)

Challenge that you're confronting now. Why is it going to be any different all this shit that you overcame?

Carrie McNulty (37:13)

done, you've already dealt with. Yeah, you're obviously skillful enough to still be here. We just need to tweak what's going on a little bit. Now you see people with trauma, is there a particular modality that you really like to use with people to treat trauma?

Zulma Williams (37:20)

Amen. Yes.

Yes, I am certified in accelerated resolution therapy. It's based off of EMDR, which uses eye movements. You know that, but for our listeners. And ⁓ the developer of this technique, which is fairly new, it's been around probably 15 years or so, ⁓ she was training EMDR. I'm not training EMDR, but...

Carrie McNulty (37:34)

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Zulma Williams (37:55)

What she did was kind of like, know, when you have a traumatic event and your brain makes a movie about that event. So when it gets triggered, it plays that movie. What she did, she added to the eye movement part of the EMDR, what is called a visual replacement, right? So you change the movie. So we use the eye movements to kind of like put that movie in.

Carrie McNulty (38:19)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (38:26)

So right now, your brain has channel three with a movie of the trauma, and that's the only movie that it has. So now we are giving the brain channel five with a different movie. So when it gets triggered, it plays the new movie with a better ending. So it's very empowering because you, this is not hypnosis. You are pretty aware of the entire session of what's going on.

Carrie McNulty (38:33)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (38:53)

But it's so empowering because you toy with the idea of like, what if I could change this? And you are changing it in your brain. So for example, if a client had experienced sexual abuse when she was a child, and now using this technique, she can go as the adult that she is now and rescue the earlier version of herself.

How empowering is that? Because when you are five, you don't know how to do that. But when you are 30, and you will do that for your own child, right? So you kind of like become the protector that you didn't have at the time. How empowering is that? That you're like, this situation doesn't own me anymore. So I had a lot of...

Carrie McNulty (39:23)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank

Zulma Williams (39:51)

success not only I work a lot with car accidents for with people who have not who are not at fault so they are now they are anxious to be driving like I was at the red light and somebody hit me so we changed the movie that ⁓ you were not at that red light the collision didn't happen ⁓ you left the house later

Carrie McNulty (39:55)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (40:16)

However you want to change it doesn't matter because it's not real. But hold on, it's not real, right? But the movie of the accident is not real right now. It was real when it happened. But when you get triggered, the brain doesn't understand that it's not real. It feels real.

Carrie McNulty (40:29)

Hmm

Yeah, so are you using eye movements or tapping while you're doing this?

Zulma Williams (40:39)

I'll do

it in person. like to do the particular ART session in person because we are dealing with trauma. So it gets very triggering. I feel personally, feel more comfortable deescalating when you are in my office.

I got trained in 2016. So this was way before the pandemic. after the, during the pandemic, you know, the tappers like EMDR can be done virtually. So a lot of ART therapists started doing it virtually, but I still want to do the ART session. I can do the virtual follow-up, no problem, but I like to do the ART.

person. I did EMDR as a client. So my therapist got training EMDR and I, of course I'm biased because I love ART, but when I did EMDR, I didn't feel the resolution part of the technique. ART is more resolution oriented. You have this problem and now you don't have that problem, right? You cannot drive, now you can drive.

Carrie McNulty (41:46)

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (41:54)

So EMDR was more about like, ⁓ why am I afraid to be on the freeway? It's because my ex-boyfriend was an asshole when I was driving. Okay, but I still don't get on the fucking freeway. So yeah, you know, like, I mean, at least that was my experience with EMDR. Right,

Carrie McNulty (42:03)

Thank

Yeah, this feels more solution oriented for

Zulma Williams (42:15)

Most of the car accidents, I only do three sessions. The initial session, and then the ART, and then the follow up, and have a good life.

Carrie McNulty (42:25)

Okay, if

rather like EMDR can be ongoing with multiple targets and things like that, this sounds like it's a very short process.

Zulma Williams (42:31)

Right,

it's solution oriented. So you might want to process a different trauma because you realize that this shit works. That's a different story.

Carrie McNulty (42:40)

Yeah, you like?

Zulma Williams (42:43)

Like if it's ongoing, like a lot of abuse or a lot of trauma, then yes, of course, but if it's just for that one particular thing with mostly with one ART session is enough.

Carrie McNulty (42:54)

Yeah. So like, we're a cute, yeah.

All right, that's very interesting. This is a modality I haven't heard of. So that's why I'm like, ooh, tell me more about this and how does that work? And because I'm curious, you know, I'm certified in EMDR and ⁓

Zulma Williams (43:07)

Right, right.

sorry

to shi- sorry I was shitting on your-

Carrie McNulty (43:16)

You don't have to apologize to me. I didn't create it. didn't, I just, I mean, I utilize it. I, you know, I like it. ⁓ but I didn't, I didn't make it. I find it interesting that there's different ways that you can adapt it because I think that.

Zulma Williams (43:24)

you

Carrie McNulty (43:31)

Even though, it's like an offshoot, just like DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy was an offshoot of cognitive behavioral therapy. So I think it's the thing as these things evolve to learn more about what people are doing to either move the process along faster for people, if it's a more acute trauma, like a car accident, to find ways that don't activate a system as much, which it sounds like this doesn't.

Zulma Williams (43:37)

All right.

Carrie McNulty (43:53)

cause people to have as many AB reactions or activate them as much as they're reliving this experience, it doesn't feel like they'll be re-traumatizing as much. That's sort what I was curious about, to just kind of see the difference. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (44:06)

Right.

Well, you know, and the thing is that, that this, the tapping, that makes me even more anxious. So when my therapist was telling me and I'm like, she's like, do you feel better? I said, no, I feel worse. So then we try different things. And I see that is so important for our listeners. Like, don't be afraid to tell your therapist or your doctor, like this shit doesn't work for me.

Carrie McNulty (44:12)

Yeah.

.

You

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

If a modality that somebody wants to try with you doesn't feel like a good fit, you know want your therapist to be able to pivot or to make it work for you or accommodate or adjust. Sometimes it's a matter of tapping in a different place on your body or tapping a table versus tapping your own body or having somebody that's willing to try multiple ways of doing something or switching altogether. I know we talked a little bit before this started about parts work and you were saying that didn't resonate so much for you, but I am IFS ⁓ trained and so internal family systems.

Zulma Williams (44:44)

Right?

Carrie McNulty (45:01)

And I find for a lot of clients, one of those is gonna work better than the other. And then some can marry the two together and get further. ⁓ It just depends on the client. And I always say to people, you're the one that's in charge of this. You are leading this. So if you are feeling something that doesn't feel right to you, or you wanna stop, or you want us to pivot, or you want us to change, and I'm always asking for consent before we try different things, because I want people to really feel in control of it. That's part of healing from your trauma too.

Zulma Williams (45:05)

Right.

Carrie McNulty (45:28)

is that you are the one that's in control of how this goes and what we do. I can provide different options, but you're the one that gets to say, right? Yeah.

Zulma Williams (45:35)

Absolutely. And in

a lot of times, as you said, like, I'm not offended. I didn't create EMDR, right? Like it works for my clients, but a lot of times clients are like, my God, like, I don't want you to be upset. I use a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy. So I give you homework, right? And it's like, I'm anxious. I'm like, okay, take a deep breath, use grounding techniques.

So you come back and I ask you, did you do the homework? No. Well, guess what the fucking homework for this week is going to be? The same shit. Because I want you to try it and tell me it doesn't work for me. So then we use a different tool. But if I'm giving you this tool and you are not using it, how do we know if it works or not? Right?

Carrie McNulty (46:04)

you

Zulma Williams (46:23)

the clients realize that, shit, she's serious about hitting the ground running. Because I'm like, if three weeks in a row, I'll give you the same homework, you're not the client for me. Because I want you to use it.

Carrie McNulty (46:26)

Yeah.

Well, yeah, it

sounds like, again, you're very, you know, action and solution, both on your end and then also on the client end, which I think, again, is wonderful that you tell them upfront.

Zulma Williams (46:47)

Right.

Carrie McNulty (46:47)

Hey, this

is what my expectations are and what are your expectations and do these two marry together? I find that when a client is really struggling to do a skill or something, even if we practice it together and they're having a hard time, I've learned over the years, because I do a of parts work, to say, is there any part of you that's like, nah, this sucks, I don't wanna do it, or this sounds stupid, or shut up, Carrie, or is there any part of you that's pushing back so we can address that now and kind of maybe make a change or an alteration before I have you try it so that we,

know that you're mostly on board with it. And a lot of the times, these are people that I've had for years because I treat eating disorders. We keep people for a long time. And they feel comfortable enough with being like, that sounds really dumb. Or I don't want to do that. Or I will talk about, well, why? What about it sounds dumb? Is it the breathing part? Is it this? Is it that? it whatever? Whatever's going to get people to try it. Because if you don't try it, we don't know.

Zulma Williams (47:24)

Right, right, right.

Exactly.

So if this doesn't work, okay, fine. Let's try something else. But let's start with the most basic one because you always can take a deep breath and you always can use your hands to do a grounding technique.

Carrie McNulty (48:00)

Yeah, or do it when you're calm so your brain actually knows to try it when you are dysregulated because something new your brain's not going to be like, hey, I remember Zulma told me that I should be doing this. You're not going do it. If you're not going to remember it, you're not going to know. Yeah.

Zulma Williams (48:09)

Right. Right.

I tell my clients that real therapy happens in between the sessions. When you go out there and you practice the shit that we talk about. But when something is triggering and you are not reacting, you are responding, that's when therapy is working. and they're like,

Carrie McNulty (48:21)

yes

Zulma Williams (48:31)

I hear your voice telling me blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, that's therapy work in?

Carrie McNulty (48:33)

Yes.

I have adult clients that'll be like, that skill that you taught me, I taught my kid. you know, right? And it's like, OK, so that means that it's with you enough that you can teach it, which is good. And you remembered. Or when people begrudgingly, when they think something sounds stupid and they do it, and then they're like, well, that actually worked.

Zulma Williams (48:59)

I remember one time I told my therapist like this is fucking stupid. I'm not gonna do it. So she's like, well, even if you are cussing me out, I invite you to try it. Right? Like, so it was like, right. So I cuss it out the entire time that I did it, but I did it. So when I went back, I was like, you bitch. And she said, did you do it? And I said, yes. Okay. That's what I, I don't care that you weren't cussing me out.

Carrie McNulty (49:05)

Thank you.

Thank

Yep, it worked.

Zulma Williams (49:29)

the important thing that you did and it worked for you, right?

Carrie McNulty (49:32)

Right, you can think I'm stupid the whole time you're doing it, you can call me names, can whatever, that could be part of it. If it makes you laugh, great, just get through, just try it, right? Yeah.

Zulma Williams (49:41)

we need more education in the community about what therapy is because it's like, it's not about fucking venting. Therapy is a lot of work. So if you don't do the work, you're not going to feel better. And it gets ugly when you are doing the work. But I always say it's kind of like going to the gym. you exercise after not exercising for a long time and then the fucking next day you cannot even walk.

Carrie McNulty (49:57)

Right.

Zulma Williams (50:09)

Right? Because you are in so much pain. If you give up because it's too painful, you're never going to get strong. So therapy is like that. And it's like pushing through the ugly moments and the hard moments and when your heart is broken. Like when I, ⁓ when my relationship, my abusive relationship ended, I was devastated. I was crying for weeks and

Carrie McNulty (50:09)

Thank

Right, right.

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (50:35)

I remember telling my therapist, like, isn't this what I wanted? Like, why the fuck am I crying all the time? And she said, bless her heart. I mean, she's awesome, very compassionate. But she will say, you love this man. I actually would be surprised if you are not crying because the relationship is over. And I was like...

Carrie McNulty (50:55)

Yeah.

Zulma Williams (51:00)

Okay, you know, at the time I didn't understand it, but as time went by, I was like, ⁓ and that is one of the biggest components of abuse that why don't you leave is it could be because you're not aware of the abuse, ⁓ but also because you love this person and because the abuse doesn't happen 24 seven. So the good moments are what keep you hooked.

Carrie McNulty (51:20)

Mm-hmm.

Zulma Williams (51:28)

later, you're like, what the fuck happened? Right? Like, so in the love component that you love this person, not because this person deserves your love, but because you have a love in nature. Right?

Carrie McNulty (51:44)

No!

Yeah, well, and grief

is grief,

Zulma Williams (51:50)

grief is love that has nowhere to go. Right? So it's like, yeah. But it was ugly. I I felt so bad. And I'm glad that I didn't stop therapy at that time when it got so hard. Because it's like, and people think that, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm going to feel better. you don't go to the gym, exercise for 40 minutes and lose 20 pounds.

Carrie McNulty (51:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

my gosh,

Well, was going say with the gym comparison, like you can't go one time and expect miracles either. You know, it's consistency. It's hard work and consistency. And I think that therapy is the same thing. And oftentimes if we're doing trauma work, the disclaimer I give is that it's going to be more painful before it gets better. And that's the work that's going to have to happen in order to get to where you want to go, but it can really be worth it on the other side of it.

Zulma Williams (52:19)

you

Carrie McNulty (52:44)

it's not necessarily always super fast and it's not pretty, people are so afraid of being uncomfortable. And most of the time, the situation they're in is so completely uncomfortable all the time, especially in the eating disorder world, you know, it's this fear of emotions and discomfort. And it's like, but you're not comfortable now, day to day, really ever. ⁓

Zulma Williams (53:03)

Right?

You're afraid of being uncomfortable, but you are having an uncomfortable life.

Carrie McNulty (53:10)

Yeah, it's all a process that will hurt more but eventually well like you said if you would never have completed therapy for at least that issue right if you hadn't worked on what you worked on where would you be now we have no idea you know but what you've accomplished and what you've cultivated for yourself is incredible and you might not have gotten to experience all this if you wouldn't have stuck with it so

Zulma Williams (53:31)

Absolutely.

Carrie McNulty (53:35)

Is there any parting words you want to leave us with today?

Zulma Williams (53:39)

Yes, so I want everybody who is listening to remember that if you woke up today, that means that your mission in life is not complete. So just keep pushing through whatever it is that you are going through. And if one day is too long, keep pushing through one hour at a time. And if one hour is too long.

Carrie McNulty (54:07)

Mmm.

Zulma Williams (54:07)

keep pushing

through 15 minutes at a time because four of those make one hour and 24 of those make one day. So as far as you continue to put one foot in front of the other and you keep moving, you're gonna get to the other side.

Carrie McNulty (54:20)

yes, and you can do anything for 15 minutes. So if we're breaking it down that way, we can do it. I love that. That's awesome. Well, I have loved meeting you today and having you on with me. It's been so fun. I think you have so much to offer your clients

Zulma Williams (54:24)

Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

think that it's fantastic that we cross paths and it's so ⁓ amazing all the wonderful work that I'm sure you do for your clients with parts and EMD. All this shit that didn't work for me, you are making it work. So I'm like, you're my hero.

Carrie McNulty (54:59)

You know, it's just like I said, at the end of the day, it's the relationship you have with your clients and being willing to try what they need. And sometimes even if that isn't us being willing to give them what they need elsewhere. I think it's been great. I really appreciate your time.

Zulma Williams (55:12)

Absolutely.

thank you so much for having me. It's been amazing.

Carrie McNulty (55:21)

You're so welcome. Everybody, I'll be back in another couple weeks with another episode, and until then, be well.