Carrie's Always Talking
The podcast all about stories and connection. Every other week there will be stories from people just like you, or perhaps it will be YOU! Stories are a part of the foundation of life, and they are one of the main ways we learn about one another. Hearing someone share their experience can be healing not only for the person sharing but also for those listening. You might laugh, you might cry, but you also might also learn that we're more alike than you think.
Carrie's Always Talking
We're Going to Clown School with Sara Kantner
In this episode of Carrie's Always Talking, Carrie and Sara Kantner explore the world of clowning, discussing its significance, the journey of self-discovery through performance, and the importance of vulnerability and audience connection. Sara shares her experiences in clown training, the joy of audience participation, and the transformative power of humor in difficult times. They also touch on the physicality of clowning, the spiritual aspects of performance, and the potential for community building through laughter and play.
Sara's Instagram:
Sara Kantner (@saknasty)
If you have a story you'd like to tell, send me an email at carrie.always.talking@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.
You can also find me on Bluesky- @carrie-is-talking.bsky.social
Carrie McNulty (00:01)
Welcome back to Carrie's Always Talking. I'm your host, Carrie McNulty. This is a podcast all about stories and connections. I believe that when people share their stories with one another, it's the main way we build empathy and humanity. And that's something I think we need a lot more of in the world today. This is season two, episode 10. I do have a guest on with me today and I think you will really enjoy her.
Before I get into talking about that and introducing and doing my normal kind of housekeeping things that I normally do and things that I say, I just want to check in and see how is everybody doing? It's been a lot lately. And I feel like it's been a while since I've spoken directly to you. I went back and I listened to one of my earlier episodes. I think it might be the second one from last season, episode two.
I guess I was just ahead of the time because sometimes I tend to know things a little bit before they happen. And I was talking to you all about if you were having a harder time that it was okay. And that we were all just having a human experience during a very difficult time to be a human. And I just want to redirect anybody who may be having a hard time back to that episode, take a listen to it, know that you're not alone. ⁓ And...
that if you find that you are struggling or feeling overwhelmed or very inundated with all the stories and news and bad news that we seem to continually be getting, you, there's nothing wrong with you. It's just a lot to take in. Even if you're a very skillful person, if you find that you're having a harder time, you are in good company because it's a very stressful time, as I've said, to be a human being, having a human experience. So I just wanted to check in and see how everybody was doing.
Know that I'm thinking about you, know that I'm sending energy your way, and hoping that we all can kind of just keep moving through this very difficult time to be a human. If you are new to the podcast, thank you. And if you are a listener that has been listening and has been with me, obviously thank you very much too. I appreciate you. If you like the podcast, please leave a review.
or rate it wherever you're listening to the podcast. It's on most platforms and on YouTube. So you can find me in multiple places. If you are somebody who is willing and able and has the financial means, I have been asking and will continue to ask that those individuals that can join me in doing a donation to your local food bank. It's something that I've been doing that's making me feel a little bit better during this time period where I feel like there isn't a
that I can do to make an impact and you know food insecurity is going to continue to be a thing and will continue to get worse I fear. So if you are able to please make a donation join me I don't think anybody should go without food I don't think anybody should go without many things that they're having to go without but this is something that I feel strongly about and so if you want to join me that would be fantastic.
If you're somebody who wants to come on the show, please reach out. My email's in the show notes. You can find it there. And that's probably the best way to contact me if you have a story you want to tell. And you can also do that anonymously if you choose. Let's talk about our guest today. Yes, her name is Sara Kantner And she is a friend of mine. I met her in the improv world. And she has been an improv coach for me to a team that I was on. I also consider her to be a friend.
and she is so hilarious. She's delightful and hilarious and awesome. And I was thinking that, you some of my episodes, I love stories of all kinds. And some of my episodes have been ⁓ more serious and but also have been very inspirational for the people that have shared those stories. You know, that they have come through it and they have shared it and
the upcoming episodes are going to be similar. And so I wanted to throw kind of midway in, throw in an episode that was just kind of lighthearted and interesting because I don't think it's something that many people know that you can even go and do. And also ⁓ if they do know, they might not know anybody personally who's gone and done it. So my friend Sara as you will hear, went to clown school.
And she went to France and she's gone to a couple of other places for training for this. And I heard about it I was like, this definitely is a story that people need to know about. So that is what she's going to be speaking about. She also has her own show that she does in the Pittsburgh area. She doesn't have anything scheduled right now coming up, but she does have a show that she's doing at the Fringe in Philadelphia. That's going to happen on September 25th, 26th and 27th. So you can catch her there and
The best way to follow up with what Sara's doing is to follow her on Instagram. So I will add that to the show notes so that you can find her and follow along with what she's doing if you're interested.
So we're gonna go ahead and get into the conversation with Sara and I will speak to you all in a couple weeks.
Carrie McNulty (05:22)
Hi, Sarah. I'm really glad that you were able to join me today. Yes. I think you have been doing some things that are pretty adventurous lately as I have been spying on your social media. And I think that you may have something to share with us that most people probably don't even know exists or have any thought of. So tell us about.
Sara Kantner (05:24)
Hi Carrie.
Thanks for having me!
Yeah, no, no.
Well, I'm a clown. I'm a clown. Turns
out, turns out that that's what I am.
Carrie McNulty (05:55)
Is this your just telling the world I'm a clown? Yeah.
Sara Kantner (05:59)
I think maybe
the world's always known, but I didn't know, you know, I think like maybe it was like, so the teacher I learned from whose original teacher was this man Jock LeCocque, funny name, right? And yeah, like he was like a master of physical theater and clown in France. And he says, everybody has a little clown, like everybody has, it's just who you were as a child.
Carrie McNulty (06:03)
Mmm!
Yeah, I was like,
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (06:27)
and like how you play. And so we've all like, you know, stuff down our little clowns. Like, and so the clown shows, reflects back to humanity, this child like wonder, you know, all these, there's all different, but then you learn, then you get deep in the clown and you learn there's all different ways to be a clown, you know? Yeah, you can get deep into it. You know, everyone's got their own opinions. What, you know?
Carrie McNulty (06:40)
Mm-hmm.
You get deep into the clown and you figure out there's
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sara Kantner (06:55)
But I thought that was a beautiful thing, like that.
Carrie McNulty (06:57)
Well,
yeah, connecting with who you were and what you loved as a kid is always beautiful. And I think how we met was through improv, and Sarah still does a lot of that, I think, right? Do you still, yeah, yeah. And so that's a very physical thing, where you're doing a lot with your imagination and bringing a lot to the table, and it's very physical, but clowning is something different even than that, right?
Sara Kantner (07:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah,
somebody actually, how it happened was I was telling someone about Trombone, the character I do, Trombone interacts with the audience. Trombone's whole thing is just interacting with the audience. There was one time I said I had to go to a dance and some guy that definitely looked like a dad taught me how to tie a tie. I was like, I don't have a dad. has to teach me how tie tie. And I was telling somebody about Trombone and they're like, oh, you're a clown. And I was like, what?
Carrie McNulty (07:27)
Mm-hmm
Aww. ⁓
Sara Kantner (07:50)
And they're like, yeah, you interact with the audience. And I was like, ⁓ And I was like, well, I never thought about that. Because I didn't go to theater. So people who've gone to theater programs have some knowledge of this work, right? Because they're often like, they take a clown, like one clown class in their training or something. Yeah. I feel like most, I'm assuming maybe it's like an elective.
Carrie McNulty (07:55)
Is that it?
Mmm.
Really? I did not know that.
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. I just never thought about that.
Sara Kantner (08:20)
Yeah,
we'll see. And so I had no idea. And then I was like, maybe I am. And then I started just diving deep into learning about clown and like listening to podcasts and reading. And then I was like, yeah, I was like, yeah, I am a clown. And I was like, I should actually like get some actual training in this. Even though I think that nobody has to have official training to be a clown, but I think that like it is. ⁓
Carrie McNulty (08:34)
Hahaha!
Yeah.
It just resonated with you
so much that you were like, want to go. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (08:49)
Yeah,
well, the big thing was like, there was that there is like this. It's tough, right? I don't think there's a master of clown. think like clowns been around since the beginning of the time, right? So like, I can't say one person is the master. I think that's like, but there's a there's a school in France a little bit outside of Paris in the town of Tom.
Carrie McNulty (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (09:13)
And it's the school of Philippe Golié. And he is this 80, I think he's 81 now, might be older, French man who studied under Jacques Lacock and his train like Sacha Baron Cohen, Emma Thompson. And so it's this like, it does feel magical, right? I only went for two weeks, but it does feel magical. Cause you're like in France and you're in this tiny medieval town and like.
you're spending your day, in the beginning of the day playing dodge ball and keep yuppie and four square and doing gym, gymnastics. Yes, for the morning and then in the afternoon the real work comes where, so you are just pretty much told go on stage, be, do something, funny. And so like,
Carrie McNulty (09:48)
So you're just kinda like being a kid.
Sara Kantner (10:03)
And they also teach in the style called via negativa, which a lot of people are going away from, like don't like, I personally liked it because I think it provokes, at least for me, like would provoke me, but it's essentially just pointing out what's bad. my teacher said to me, I mean, I love my teacher, Carlo. Like he was, you know, I learned such a great deal from him, but there was like, I think it was the second or third day I did something and he was like, ay-ya-ya.
Carrie McNulty (10:09)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ugh.
Sara Kantner (10:31)
When you speak, it is a disaster.
And it's like, you know, it's like that sort of stuff. ⁓ Like another very funny moment was like, I mean, and they'll be honest, right? if nobody's laughing, obviously it's not going well. So I say it's going all right, you know? It's almost like I think to break the tension in the room, the teacher being like pointing out this is bad, makes everybody laugh then. another one was Philippe.
who was there, he wasn't there all the time, but he said to somebody, there's somebody up there and it was not going well. the scene stopped and he was like, who would want to marry this man? And so somebody raised their hand in my class, because you know, like your night, like was like, I guess like I would marry him and he goes, oh, you would marry him. You would say, oh, I love you so much. He's my alarm clock. He wake me up. I laugh.
⁓ make me laugh so hard. He's my alarm clock. I love him. He makes me want to kill myself. And so like, I think it's funny. There are a lot of people though who I know have had like rough experiences, right? Because it is like the work of clown is like very much about vulnerability and sitting with feelings on stage, whether the bit's flopping or succeeding and just like
Carrie McNulty (11:41)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Sara Kantner (11:53)
looking into the audience eyes and recognizing like.
Carrie McNulty (11:57)
Nobody's coming along with me here. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (11:59)
Yeah, like,
it's not working. And then you try something new, right? And then the audience loves you because you've pushed through the failure, tried something else and shown like, what a great idiot you are. Like, look at this idiot. Like they were doing, like we weren't laughing and look, we love them because they tried again and they've made us laugh. the training itself, like I love, like I had the time of my life, I
Carrie McNulty (12:08)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (12:26)
think just training to break through, sort of just what were conditioned as women, I would say, to smile the minute you get on stage, to be sweet and beautiful. I was coming on a stage and I was smiling every time, that's, I think, one, it's just a thing I did, and two, I think I thought, oh, if you're going into a comedy show, you should smile, and then,
Carrie McNulty (12:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
you
Sara Kantner (12:56)
another clown who's a professional clown, like in Cirque du Soleil was like, you smile too much. And it pissed me off. Cause I was like, what? and so the next class I went in I was pissed. And so was like, I'm not going to smile. And then it was the same day that we had a bunch of students have to leave because of COVID. I think we're getting COVID. And so Carla was like, now's your chance to say whatever you want to say about clown school. Like let it all out.
Carrie McNulty (13:14)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (13:23)
like be pissed. And so I was like, good, like here we go. It's on. And people, I lit up the room. People were just laughing and laughing and laughing. And it was like this weird uncovering where I was like discovery within myself that uncovering that me being angry makes people laugh. And I think it is because like, I kind of have a very like soft nature anyway. So seeing me angry is
Carrie McNulty (13:27)
It's on. Yeah.
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (13:50)
It's hard to take me serious when I'm angry. so it's really was interesting to discover that piece of me as a performer. Like something that I don't think I ever would have discovered. Even if I took an acting class, even if I continued an improv, I don't think, I think I had to be pushed and provoked to get to that frustration to then discover this.
Carrie McNulty (14:06)
Right. You know,
I think just in going back in my mind and all the shows I've seen you in and all of our classes and things that you've done, I think that's true. I don't think I've ever seen you play angry.
Sara Kantner (14:20)
No, and like, I don't think like, I was like genuinely angry when I did this thing, but now I can just like play these sort of, I think the anger has sort of been channeled more into like what they would call impulse. this immediate feeling in your gut of like, this is what I want to do on stage, I'm going to do it. And then like the pleasure, the thing they talk about a lot is sharing with the audience your pleasure. so what's your pleasure to play? how do you want to play?
Carrie McNulty (14:25)
I
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (14:48)
on stage for us. And when you're up there and you're having this great pleasure and you're having so much fun and you're looking the audience in the eyes and you're sharing with them those moments of ah, it worked in those moments of like, ah, yikes. you know, it creates this energy that I think people are really responsive to because they feel it's true. Like I think that's, I think, yes, clown is like very much like there's no,
Carrie McNulty (14:48)
Mm-hmm.
You
It feels authentic. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (15:14)
Bullshit, right? Like it's not like I'm not perform- like I'm Sarah and I am performing a character But all of it in real time is out there for the audience to see Yeah
Carrie McNulty (15:18)
Mm-hmm.
And you're problem solving as you go. Like you said, you're watching
people's reactions and you're pivoting and you, sounds like you, well, I mean, you don't have necessarily anybody else up there to play off of either, right? So it kind of is up to you.
Sara Kantner (15:35)
No.
So the big thing, the way I know clown can be ensemble work. can be do it can be do as true as how many people ⁓ but like also in any clown show, big piece of it is the audience is your teammate. the audience is your so essentially by listening to them what they're laughing at, they're guiding me to they like this, I'm going to play this more that didn't work too well. I can either comment on it, which is like kind of cheap that you can do.
Carrie McNulty (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (16:02)
or I can just like move past it and jump to something else. And so they are your scene partners in a sense. Like the games that we play as a clown, we're playing with the audience. So you try to find little things that the audience can do. I really love audience participation and I always have like even before I started studying clowns. So there's a lot of audience participation in my show because I think A, it makes the show different every time.
Carrie McNulty (16:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Sara Kantner (16:26)
And B,
it's like, I love to see an audience member look like the star. yes, I'm up there, but if I can have somebody leave the stage and feel like, wow, I never thought I'd get on stage and I just had the time of my life
there's this like safety. I think the clown offers a little bit of safety because the clown's so vulnerable, then the audience feels like, well, this person's up here, being so vulnerable, I'm safe, you know, with this person up here. I had a few people where people were like, is that an audience plant? And I was like, no, that person, I'd never even met them in my life. I could tell they wanted to get on stage and I was like, all right, I'm bringing her up.
and she's having the time of her life and like, we are, she looks great. by her looking great, I look great there's like another thing in clown we say complicitay, which is good vibes, like between performers, or I would say complicitay between the audience and the performer. so just respect and like working well together and playing together. And so
Carrie McNulty (17:10)
Yeah.
Sara Kantner (17:24)
generating that with an audience member is a lot of fun, because it feels like, yeah, it just feels like an opportunity for a normal person to get on stage. And I want more normal people just to get on stage.
Carrie McNulty (17:32)
What in?
Yeah, and have a good time and do things they didn't think they could do. And then there's more of a buy-in, you know, because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about clowns. I think people think of one thing when they think of a clown, but there's probably, like you said, many, many different ways to do it or many different ways to do a show. And this you're introducing to people who've never done anything like this before, and they're having a great time. That's awesome.
Sara Kantner (17:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
And people think like, cause people will be like, like a birthday clown. I was like, I could do that. There's I'm a theatrical clown. you know, hospital clowning. Like I did some dementia care clowning, like a couple of times, which was like great. And so like, I do think it's interesting because most people immediately go to birthday clown and they're like, wait, they're like, paint your face. And I'm like, no, I don't even know. It's like, I don't wear the nose.
Carrie McNulty (18:05)
Mm-hmm.
⁓
Boogie.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (18:24)
The nose is like kind of there, I guess, in my head, but like, I'm not wearing it on stage.
Carrie McNulty (18:29)
Yeah, you're
not wearing the big floppy shoes and you're not wearing the wig and the nose, which is what...
Sara Kantner (18:31)
No, no,
do like in my show, cause I like gags and I like props, right? So I do have that in my show. Cause I think like that to me captures some extra spirit of the clown. the biggest thing is just playing with the audience. this show is their show and my show, you know, we are here together this for this next 45 minutes. We're here together in this room. What magic's going to happen between all of us?
Carrie McNulty (18:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (18:59)
feels like such like a nice, like, it's like a brief moment of community, right? It's like, and I think like audiences to me were really craving that, I noticed craving that interaction, craving that sort of camaraderie. And so it's fun to see how people respond to it.
Carrie McNulty (19:04)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yeah.
how does it vary for you? Cause you've done standup, you've done improv and now you do this. How does this, how is it different for you?
Sara Kantner (19:27)
For me, it's different. I'm being much more physical. I recently was at another camp ⁓ in June and we really focused on physicality. And it's something now that I'm rewatching my show before I go to Philadelphia and I'm like, okay, we need to lock in more physically. I think like to me, clown feels like a nice hybrid of standup improv because
Carrie McNulty (19:35)
Hmm.
Sara Kantner (19:48)
Stand-ups listen to the audience. They listen to what people are laughing for, right? Like, they don't laugh at blue joke. They're like, okay, I'm scrapping these two. And so there's that and clown, but it's improvised. I don't, I have beats written down because I've tested it, works. But within that, whatever the audience, whatever starts growing in the improv sense, we play that until the next.
Carrie McNulty (19:51)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sara Kantner (20:15)
thing we go on to. So it's a nice sort of blend of the two. And also I think it's just like in improv we don't break the fourth wall. And in clown you're looking directly into people's eyes. Like you want to stay in the room and let everybody know like I see you, you see me. Here we go. No.
Carrie McNulty (20:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right. You're not pretending like they're not there necessarily, unless you're
playing a game where you're involving the audience, which you can do. But this sounds like from the beginning, you're making it clear that we're all in this together. Yeah. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (20:44)
Yes, exactly. We're all in this
together. especially because like the eye contact can really let audience know they're safe. and I think stand-ups, I would say, I guess some of them do like when they do crowd work, but I think like they're not looking like into the audience's eyes. don't think, I mean, maybe they are actually, I don't know. I never did when I did stand-up because I was so worried about getting the...
Carrie McNulty (20:58)
Right.
I couldn't imagine, no, holding deep eye contact with somebody while you're, yeah, no.
Sara Kantner (21:07)
Yeah, all this.
Yeah, I mean, I think
that could be people that would stand out the stand up step, but yeah.
Carrie McNulty (21:14)
I would cry, think
that, see, but the vibe of that's different. I think that could creep people out in an audience for standup versus for clowning, you know?
Sara Kantner (21:24)
Yeah. I think that the icon is open. Like I had one show where I have this Ouija board bit and like, you know, I, the people know that I get possessed. did the show involves like a demon. And so I had this young kid, was probably like 16 come up and he was doing the Ouija board and under his breath, he said just please don't yell at me. And I was like, I wouldn't yell. was like, like this makes me cry a little bit because like,
Carrie McNulty (21:37)
You
Yeah.
Sara Kantner (21:51)
that he was like, felt safe enough to tell me that. And that I was able to tell him like, I don't like being yelled at. So I wouldn't yell at you. It's those moments in clown that to me are what make it worth it, right? Like I think like the clown opens up a connection that I think most performances don't get.
Carrie McNulty (21:55)
Mmm, yeah.
I wouldn't. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sara Kantner (22:19)
And that was just one those moments where I thought, this is special, that this kid felt safe to say that to me. And that in the end, his mom, they took a picture with me and they were like, this was great. Especially like...
Carrie McNulty (22:24)
Mm-hmm.
Aww. So
you might have healed an experience for him that he had where maybe he was called out or yelled at in an experience like this and you gave him a new memory that was way better, which is awesome.
Sara Kantner (22:42)
Yeah.
Well, that's the thing. I think it's just like, it's interesting to see, even sometimes when I look out the room, like in a few of my furniture shows where I would like look at the crowd and I was like, I have all different people of all different, backgrounds and ages and I was just like thinking, this is what it's about, like getting all these people in one room together and having joy and yeah.
Carrie McNulty (22:55)
Mm-hmm.
Having fun.
Sara Kantner (23:04)
And those moments are when I get weepy and I think, wow, this is the work. This is the reason.
Carrie McNulty (23:10)
Well, it
is, it is the work and I would guess it is the reason and especially in the world that we live in right now, that you're providing 45 minutes of time where people don't have to think about all the bullshit that's going on constantly is a gift in and of itself. And then you're including them in it. So it's not even like they're just coming and watching. They're getting to be a part of it, you know, maybe unbeknownst to them or however it is when they come in, you know, which is really cool because
Sara Kantner (23:15)
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (23:35)
In that time, they're not thinking about looking at their phones or they're not thinking about the next bad thing that's coming. They're having a good time with you and being present. And that's great.
Sara Kantner (23:42)
Yeah, yeah,
I had a couple women came on a Monday night and they came up to me like, we've totally forgot it was Monday. And like, I was like, if I can offer that which is crazy I think people look at comedy or think like, ⁓ you know, like,
Carrie McNulty (23:49)
Yeah, that's awesome.
Sara Kantner (23:59)
⁓ fame, lits and glamour. I think like for me, I think just this space, opening up this it does feel like a way to help the world little bit. It's cheesy as it is. It's like, okay, like, you know, like.
Carrie McNulty (24:07)
No, it is. Yeah, now more than
ever, we need people who are gonna be creative and think outside the box and do fun things and be innovative in a time where everything's getting shut down around us more than anything. And that might not even have been your thinking when you started this, but I think that's probably gonna be part of what you're doing.
Sara Kantner (24:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, and
it is interesting because I didn't expect that coming into it. And then as I start doing it and learning more and more, you realize how much humor and vulnerability can like really help and can really, just provide a service in a way like.
Carrie McNulty (24:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
We need
reminders that we're human and that we all share that in common and what you're doing is one of those things. To remind people that we all can appreciate humor, well, not everybody, but a lot of people can appreciate humor in a space together and be a part of something creative. What you're doing is actually very important right now. You know, it really is.
Sara Kantner (24:48)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I do think like, I think like all the clowns,
like right now, clowning is having a moment. And I think that's great. And I think it is because of the state of the world. I think people are looking to reflect back, joy or reflect back,
Carrie McNulty (25:08)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (25:18)
I don't think it all has to be positive. I think there's some clowns that really push and like, will expose the injustices and those clowns are great. clowns also have more agency to do that because people think, this is the clown's a great idiot. The clown's so stupid, but the clown then can like reflect back. Like look how shitty the king is. Right.
Carrie McNulty (25:29)
They can get away
Yeah, yeah,
and
safe more safely get that message across.
Sara Kantner (25:41)
cause even in my show, the second night this time I drink a can of beer that has blood in it and spit it out. And the second night I had an American flag bandana and I was like, I'm going to wipe this blood with this American flag and we're going to see what happens. And I was terrified. this could make an idea. instead it like erupted in cheers. And it sort of showed me the way that you can really push something that and otherwise people would be like,
Carrie McNulty (25:56)
Mm-hmm.
What are you doing? Yeah.
Sara Kantner (26:07)
And
I even said, I had a student who was a former, Marine or he was in the military in some way. And I was really concerned. I'm in no way like denigrating anyone's service. and he was like, A, I don't think anyone would come who would like disagree with that. And B he was like, I also did not feel like, you know, this wasn't a disrespect. Like he was like,
Carrie McNulty (26:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (26:27)
And
so I do think it's interesting what you can get away with in clown versus like stand up. It's so overt.
Carrie McNulty (26:33)
Yes, it's always on the nose. It's not, yeah, you're directly saying the thing. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (26:36)
Yeah.
Yes.
So it's been like quite a journey. It's been a ride, you know, but there's so much to learn
Carrie McNulty (26:48)
How many people from the US went when you went or what did it look like in terms of where people were from?
Sara Kantner (26:53)
So in my class, there were four of us from the US. A lot of people from the UK.
Carrie McNulty (27:01)
okay.
Sara Kantner (27:04)
one person from Italy and then two guys from South America. But they were like also living in Europe at the time, because they were in like circuses in Europe. They were kind of incredible to watch circus clown, because they are really good. they were good at gymnastics.
Carrie McNulty (27:11)
Okay.
Hmm.
Sara Kantner (27:22)
And then I was like, I'm not like a jack little guy. Like I can't flip around. And then, well, you know, it did, the thing it did was I was like, this is very good for me to move my physical body, I had my movement teacher was like, well, Sarah's strong. And I was like, yeah, I guess I am strong. And then when I got back, I was like, I'm going to start strength training.
Carrie McNulty (27:25)
No. Did it make you want to learn gymnastics? Were you like...
Sara Kantner (27:45)
And so it like sort of a push me to also then recognize I need to take care of my body and be in decent shape if I want to physically move like this. And if I want to continue down this road for decades, I have to make sure I'm like strong.
Carrie McNulty (27:59)
Totally. Yeah,
you don't want to be an older woman that can't get off the toilet. No way.
Sara Kantner (28:03)
Yeah. And so like, and
so it did push me towards that, doing more
Carrie McNulty (28:09)
so it's been opening doors to other things you hadn't thought of and other areas of your life. So it wasn't even just about the way you do comedy and how you perform, but now it's also like how you're treating your body and health and other things, which is interesting too.
Sara Kantner (28:13)
⁓
Yeah.
Well, the course I was in this past June, right? we did this whole thing called, seeing seeing, which is just neutral face, like no smiles, no raising your eyebrows. Don't do anything with your face. Look at, you know, you're seeing partners and look at them and see them and let them see you. And so like often we very, yes, we very
Carrie McNulty (28:39)
That's very vulnerable, I have to say.
Sara Kantner (28:44)
easily see other people, we don't easily let other people see us. And it's like something I've been practicing in day to day interactions, it's sort of interesting to see the shift in energy, like it happened with a cashier, which I didn't even realize I think I just, wasn't thinking about it, but it was just a moment. And then there's like, it felt like almost like there was this like levity to the conversation or even it's this brief interaction,
Carrie McNulty (28:48)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Sara Kantner (29:07)
open to space of levity or like just a recognition of each other. that's something I've been sort of like interested in since this course. how can I implement more of the stuff I'm learning in my day to day, just like going through the motions life, outside of the stage. Cause I think a lot of the work can like impact everything.
Carrie McNulty (29:21)
Mm-hmm.
Well, it sounds like you're just trying to be more mindful in all areas and more present. Yeah. And picking up on things. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (29:35)
Yeah, yeah, and just like taking it as it comes, yeah. Which is like,
also it could be an age thing too, I'm 37, I think in combination everything, it kind of like.
Carrie McNulty (29:47)
Well, you tend to be, I think, a more adventurous kind of person in general. So whenever I heard that you were going to go to clown school, I was like, well, yeah, of course she is. mean, that definitely sounds like something Sarah would be like, I want to sign up for that. Because it'd be all about the experience of doing it, just to have that experience.
Sara Kantner (29:59)
Yeah
Yeah!
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (30:10)
I think there's some people in the world who would try anything once and, you know, be fully present for it. And you are one of those people in my mind that are just like, I would do that. Yeah. And you would, and then you do it. And it's awesome.
Sara Kantner (30:17)
Yeah, I think-
Yeah, I mean, it's fun. it's one of those things where maybe it's because like as a kid, I think I was way more anxious, you know, instead of now as an adult, therapy, medication all this stuff, right? now I'm like, ⁓ it is safe for me to try to hang from a monkey bar. but now like, is my body slowly aging? I'm like, no, I've
Carrie McNulty (30:38)
You
Sara Kantner (30:40)
must try to do this crazy thing. And it's like, okay. Whereas like, it's funny, because then I think like kids who were like super adventurous, like, you know, sometimes like they get more anxious when they get older because it is like, you the danger, like, you know,
Carrie McNulty (30:48)
Mm-hmm.
you become more
aware that you are actually fragile. Yeah, that the things can happen. I, for sure, I think it was the other way around for me. I think I would have was more willing to take risks. Like the thought that I went away on a motorcycle and got married and we did a whole tour of the South and that's the stuff that we used to do all the time. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I wouldn't get on a motorcycle. Oh, you know, like, Oh, I just wouldn't do those things. But you know, I'm 45 now. you know.
Sara Kantner (30:59)
Yeah!
Hahaha!
I feel like there are some things that
I probably wouldn't like. I don't know. I've never been on a motorcycle. I don't know if I ever will. Like, I don't know. I think I'm an adventurer in a learning way, like where I'm like, ⁓ this is like a learning experience. I would skydive, but I don't even know if that's that adventurous. I feel like so many people.
Carrie McNulty (31:25)
You
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I think that's
pretty adventurous. think, yeah, yeah.
Sara Kantner (31:39)
Yeah,
I can't climb a rock wall. I, I get freaked out with the thought of it, you know, like, Sarah, there's, there's some things where I'm like, nah, it's not for me.
Carrie McNulty (31:45)
you
Yeah, but if you want to, that's my thing is that if it comes, gets into your mind and you want to do it, you can find a way to make it happen, you know? Like most people might think, that sounds interesting, but they would not put their life on hold and go somewhere for two weeks and train and do what you did, you know?
Sara Kantner (31:52)
yeah.
⁓ Yeah.
yeah.
I mean, I think it does take a certain kind of like freak to do, you know, especially like when I go to these courses, it's really great. Cause you're in a community
I think it's most of the people who go to clown courses, right? Like are searching for, freedom in a way. Cause it's like, it's like those two weeks you get to just be like doing weird things with your body and play, dancing, singing and doing all these things that like we don't often as adults get to do in our day-to-day lives, but they're like so intrinsically human. And it's like, yeah.
Carrie McNulty (32:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
No.
Yeah, you get
to be a little kid that walks around in the grocery store and dances around the cart and sings and does all that stuff, but as an adult. Yeah. Yeah. Why is this socially not acceptable? Yeah.
Sara Kantner (32:46)
Exactly. it's like, sometimes I'm like, why do we stop? Like, I'm like,
Yeah,
like, especially now I'm kind of like, everyone should just be doing whatever they want. I'm like, if the world's the way it is now, like, yeah, they, I don't do whatever you want. Like, I don't judge anyone. I don't judge anyone. I'm like, I don't care. Like, let this person, you need to go scream in the middle of the park. Go, I don't, you know.
Carrie McNulty (33:01)
Do what you need to do.
I can't believe there aren't more people screaming. It's a fantasy that I have often and always have since I was a kid that I would just scream and scream and scream until I would lose my voice. And I think about it often. But I don't let myself do it.
Sara Kantner (33:20)
Yeah, no, mean, like, that's the thing.
I'm like, you know, if you got to do it, do it. You know, that's how I feel now. Like, whatever you got to do, do it. because like also the other thing I've learned through clown is in both courses, I've been the both two week courses I've been in that I've had breakdowns in each. first off, I think that's part of the work. it's really vulnerable work and you're doing it for so long.
Carrie McNulty (33:26)
Yeah.
Mm.
Sara Kantner (33:44)
And you hit a wall at a certain point, right? both of those times where I was able to go out in front of my classmates and just bear it all out, people afterwards are like, thank you. Because they also have been feeling those feelings, but somebody has to like crack through the barrier and say you know what, this is how, and then other people are like, you know what? I also felt that way.
Thank you. Yeah, and I think that's like a great thing about the clown. And I even think improv does that. it's just that open space of being able to like share and play and like.
Carrie McNulty (34:08)
So you made it safe for them to share too by just, yeah.
Sara Kantner (34:22)
Yeah, like be free like a little bit, like, you know, and like.
Carrie McNulty (34:23)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (34:28)
Yeah, just like let it go. Let it like be loose, you know, and like.
Carrie McNulty (34:32)
Yeah,
be with people who also are there to do the same thing. And yeah, there's nobody there that's like, I can't believe that's the kind of clown she wants to be. you know, like, you know, which is, which is nice.
Sara Kantner (34:36)
Yeah!
No, no, no, no, no, no.
And like, that's the thing, like, it's, I've just met so many different, and what I love seeing in class is the different ages, both of my classes had women in their like sixties, seventies, which I think is incredible,
Carrie McNulty (34:55)
was just going to ask you how many women versus men, because I always think that's an interesting thing in the comedy world to talk about.
Sara Kantner (35:01)
You know what I'll
say? Okay, so in June, was way more women than I think there were.
Carrie McNulty (35:05)
Hmm.
Sara Kantner (35:08)
my God, what, four men, I think? And then like, I would say also in France, was, well, my morning group had more women than the afternoon group. I would say like, maybe more of an even split in France, but yeah, I would say it's interesting to see like, because clowning
Carrie McNulty (35:11)
Okay.
Mm.
Okay.
Yeah.
Sara Kantner (35:32)
an approachable art form for everyone.
Carrie McNulty (35:35)
Yeah, that maybe.
Sara Kantner (35:36)
Once you get past the fear of,
I know there are lot of people who are like, oh gosh, you have to look in the eye. I have a few students who are like, oh, I hate eye contact. I think improv helped me with eye contact and everything. But I still sometimes don't want it. But then when I do, I feel better.
Carrie McNulty (35:58)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (35:59)
I think at the times like strangers are the people most often that I don't want to make eye contact with. But then when I do, I feel better. But then it's also like those moments.
Carrie McNulty (36:07)
Well,
to be fair as a woman, we also don't try to make eye contact with everybody because if you do and you think you're doing it in like this nice light connecting just what then all of a sudden, yeah, it goes wrong. yeah, so.
Sara Kantner (36:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And so like, I think like once you
break through that, it's like more fun. I think just playing from your body, which is something I think has really helped me feel more comfortable in my body.
Carrie McNulty (36:34)
Yeah,
that makes sense to me, especially if you're being vulnerable both ways. You're looking at people and really seeing them. And like you said, you're letting people really see you. So you're not really hiding from anything. You're getting more comfortable being seen and hopefully making you more comfortable with your body too. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (36:53)
Yeah, and so
I think it's such a great art form and I'm glad it's having this moment because I think so many people could just benefit from that sort of vulnerability and space of play and joy. And so it's been a fun whole ride. And now I'm like, oh, I guess I kind of know what I want to do the rest of my life, which is because I can always be a clown. There's going to be a time when I can no longer be a corporate lease analyst.
Carrie McNulty (37:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (37:22)
you know?
Carrie McNulty (37:24)
But you
can, you don't have to retire from being a clown. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (37:27)
Yeah, I like, can always be a clown. You know, like that's a job
I can always have.
Carrie McNulty (37:33)
Well, so you have a show, you've done some shows here, but you're going to Philadelphia to do three days at the end of September. What is that all about? Is it like a festival? it a, what is that?
Sara Kantner (37:40)
Yes.
Yeah, so
I started, so like, there's a lot of shows in the fringe circuit. And so like the big, like the big Mac Daddy fringe is the Edinburgh fringe. And that happens every August. But there's a whole fringe circuit in the States and in Canada and Europe and everywhere. And it essentially was started for anyone to create theater. theater is, has sort of turned into space, right? Where it can be difficult to
Carrie McNulty (37:55)
Okay.
Sara Kantner (38:11)
break in, you're constantly seeing the same plays over and over. Whereas Fringe encourages weird, immersive, you know? And so I started my show at Pittsburgh Fringe. I've done it two years now. And then this year I applied to the Philadelphia Fringe to their Cannonball Hub, which is a curated hub. And so I got in and so I'm going to do three nights of my show there. So it'll be fun to see how it plays in front of a different, yeah, different crowd. So.
Carrie McNulty (38:19)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
That's awesome.
A different crowd. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (38:39)
And that's the nice thing about fringe is you can, a lot of them are lottery. So you apply and they just randomly choose and it's just an opportunity to be able to try the overhead's not super high unless you're a touring theater company that has a lot of money and a big presence. Then you're getting into higher things. But for me, I get this space for like $600. if I crack even great,
Carrie McNulty (38:56)
Mm.
Great.
Sara Kantner (39:04)
What fun, like, you know, and to see how it goes, especially what I like about, I'm going to be, I'm excited to go to this is meeting other performers and other artists and getting to see other shows. I went to Edinburgh for a week last year just to see shows and it was great. I got to see like, ⁓ I like this type of clown show, this type of clown show, not my speed seeing what works? What, you know, what am I fond of? What don't I like?
Carrie McNulty (39:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
then do you incorporate some of that into what you do or are you pretty solid?
Sara Kantner (39:33)
Yeah, like, well, I get like,
I'll be like, okay, I would love to have a show like this. But like, these are people that have been doing it for a very long time where it's like really tight, really crisp, like, ⁓ yeah, so you kind of see like what you could aspire to be I would like to be a little more put together than this one or like, you know, so get a sense of like what you want out of it.
Carrie McNulty (39:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. What to work towards in your clown retirement, eventually.
Sara Kantner (39:56)
Yeah. Yeah, my clown retired. Yeah, Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (40:02)
Well, that's really cool. mean, I think it was just an adventure. It's not one that many people do. So I was like, I want to hear about this and I want other people to hear about this because...
Sara Kantner (40:11)
No!
Yeah, I mean, I don't know
if like I, know, truthfully I'm like, yeah, it's weird. Like sometimes I think about it I'm like, ⁓ I can't believe I did like, know, that I'm on this journey. But then also there are times where I'm like, yeah, but maybe I've always been on this journey, you know? No, no.
Carrie McNulty (40:31)
It doesn't, it's not that it doesn't fit. Like again, when I heard
it, was like, yeah, uh-huh. I could definitely see that for sure.
Sara Kantner (40:37)
Yeah,
like even my like one of my best friends from high school, I went to New York for my first clown class just like right before I went to France because I was like, I better see if I like this. I was telling him about it. He was like, that makes total sense. And he was like, Yeah, of course. And I was like, I guess it does. It's like one of those things where you're like, whenever people from the outside are like, yeah.
Carrie McNulty (40:53)
Yeah, of course you're.
You're like, have people known all along that I was a clown before I knew?
Sara Kantner (41:05)
Well, that's sort of how
I felt. yeah, that's sort of how I felt. Like, whenever somebody told me, can't even remember who it was. I was like, what? And then I was like, oh, I guess I am. And then I was like looking back even on my life and like moments in my life. And I was like, yeah, I guess. Like, there have always been these little pieces, right? And like, until I had like a label to put on it.
Carrie McNulty (41:28)
Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.
Sara Kantner (41:31)
Cause I was
not like the class clown. Like, you know, I didn't get voted that. I got voted most unique, but yeah, that's I was voted most unique, whatever that means.
Carrie McNulty (41:35)
Mm-mm. That was unique. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (41:44)
was like, I was like, okay. Which I guess like, it's true I guess, I don't know.
Carrie McNulty (41:45)
All right, I'll take it. I don't know. Yeah, sure.
Well, it's better than being the most mid or the most boring. Yeah, I'll take the most unique. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (41:55)
Yeah, yeah, like most intelligent. Well, I guess that's good, but like.
Yeah, I'm like, I remember I wanted best artist, but my friend Theresa, my good friend Theresa got best artist, but she deserved it. But then I was like, but I did get most unique.
Carrie McNulty (42:07)
Aww.
Mm-hmm.
You got, that's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, again, I guess in high school you could take that as either a compliment or an insult, but now in life, if somebody said, you're the most unique, I'd be like, that's awesome. Yeah. I don't want to be just like everybody else. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (42:28)
yeah, I think I took it as like, I took
it as like a compliment. feel like I was like, yeah, like I was like, yeah, I am most unique. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, yeah, that's true.
Carrie McNulty (42:33)
Very cool.
Yeah, I'm not like the rest of you. Yeah.
Aww, well, is there anything else about clowning that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share?
Sara Kantner (42:52)
Oh my God, there's so much you can talk about. No, I don't know. I don't think. think like, what's the last thing I want to say on clowning? I think everyone should take a clown class. That's what I think. Like, I feel like I want everyone in the world to take a clown class. I think like getting back to that sense of play and like, I also think getting back to that sense of like, say, like feeling.
Carrie McNulty (43:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (43:15)
Honestly, I think it is like a sense of feeling safe in your body and in the person you are I think just because you have to be so vulnerable it Encourages you to feel safe in yourself Which I think is sort of interesting because I think like there may be other like I'm sure other people could speak to their experiences and be like clown was terrible for me and made me feel so vulnerable and raw like and I would be like a hundred percent valid but I think like once you push through that like and you push past
Carrie McNulty (43:20)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (43:45)
that initial like, this is hurts. It's hurts to be seen. I, you know, once you get through that, then there's this like, you're not afraid of any, like you're just kind of like, wow, I just let these people I don't know, really see me and nothing bad happened. I had, actually I had fun. Actually I learned something about myself. I learned something about humanity.
Carrie McNulty (43:48)
Mm-hmm.
And nothing bad happened. They laughed. They had fun. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (44:13)
And like.
Carrie McNulty (44:13)
And you
got out of your own way to bring real joy to other people. You weren't in your own head about what you were doing. And it sounds like that process allowed you to move past whatever you were thinking about yourself in your head while you were doing it and just be there making the experience for the people with you. Yeah. Yeah.
Sara Kantner (44:17)
Yes.
Yeah. And it is just like, it is sort of like a flow state thing. Like it is
sort of just like a, like, cause sometimes we would be like, people will be like, how did you do that? Or like, remember when you did this? And I'm like, I literally don't remember. cause I'm just up there doing You know, and so I'm like, once I'm off stage, I'm like, it's kind of like, yeah. And then I'm like, I'll watch a video back and be like, yeah, that really worked. Or like, that was not.
Carrie McNulty (44:43)
Yeah,
How was it? I don't know. I was just in it.
Sara Kantner (44:58)
didn't hit. That wasn't great.
Carrie McNulty (45:00)
Well, that's,
well, I think that's something people would not assume about clowning is that you would feel more safe in your own body and more connected to your own body and that that would be a benefit to it. So.
Sara Kantner (45:16)
Yeah,
don't think, yeah. And I don't think I even thought like that was a benefit of it. I think in my head I was like, oh, I know like, I was like, this thing sounds cool and interesting and I'd love to learn more about it. But then it's like, I started doing it, I was like, oh wow. this is a very powerful art form and tool and there's a reason why they talk about sacred clowns,
Carrie McNulty (45:34)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (45:39)
there is something sort of spiritual, know, it's like, woo, there is something really spiritual about like that vulnerability and that like.
Carrie McNulty (45:41)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (45:49)
that feeling in your body, like playing with your whole body and like trusting your gut, like trusting your impulse and like.
Carrie McNulty (45:52)
Yeah.
Well,
yeah, I think we're very far away from listening to our internal guidance. And it sounds like that's what you're out there with is yourself and your internal guidance. So.
Sara Kantner (46:06)
Yeah.
And so, yeah, like I said, I wish everyone would take a I think it'd be fun.
Carrie McNulty (46:11)
Are you hoping to at some point do something like that in Pittsburgh?
Sara Kantner (46:17)
I am hoping,
I was hoping like this fall, I still have to like figure out a space, but like to teach like an eight week clown course. Like, ⁓ I know like a lot of improvisers are interested, but I also think like anyone, like I watched performers like of all different types and I'm like, any performer could benefit from clown. you could be, ⁓ any person, like just like to play again and like, to like just be like goofy and like.
Carrie McNulty (46:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Or it sounds just like any person, maybe.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Kantner (46:44)
you know, being forced to like look into your teammates eyes for three hours really sit with, you know, like what it is to be human and seeing people fail and seeing people succeed. Like, I think that's like the great feeling too is to watch the people push past the uncomfortable and push past discomfort and push past the failures and the flops.
And then whenever they do get that win, that big laugh or that something clicks, it's like those moments, you can just it's like this like magical energy of like joy, like everyone, you're just like, yeah, it feels like a sporting game. Like it feels like you're like, yeah, you're like, they did it. Like you're like, I can't believe it. I never, you know, they were like down on their luck and now here they are.
Carrie McNulty (47:11)
Mm-hmm.
They got it! Yeah.
Well, I guess then ⁓ keep your eyes peeled everyone if you're in the Pittsburgh area, because maybe in the fall there'll be a class. And if not the fall, maybe sometime coming up soon.
Sara Kantner (47:40)
Climb classes. Yeah.
Yeah. So.
Carrie McNulty (47:47)
Well, thank you for coming on and telling us all about it. I loved hearing your story and just the fact that you did it is so cool in and of itself. And I'm excited to see what else comes of it. You know, I will be sure to in the show notes, put Sarah's Instagram so you can find her there. And as I said, she has a show in September happening on the 25th, 26th and 27th. So check her out.
Sara Kantner (47:50)
thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (48:17)
⁓
Sara Kantner (48:17)
Yeah.
Carrie McNulty (48:18)
and go for some laughs and for some connection. Yeah, we all need it right now. Like real bad. ⁓ yeah. To everybody listening, thank you so much. I will be back in another couple of weeks with another episode for you. Until then, everybody take care.
Sara Kantner (48:21)
Yeah, have some fun. So, yes, yeah.
Yeah.
