The Hidden Burdens of Grief with Dr. Lynn Banis

In this conversation, Carrie speaks with  Dr. Lynn Banis who shares her personal journey through grief, discussing the profound impact of losing loved ones and how it led her to help others navigate their own grief. She emphasizes the importance of community support, self-care, and the need to honor one's emotions while moving forward. The discussion also touches on societal attitudes towards grief, the physical effects of loss, and the significance of creating new traditions. Dr. Lynn offers insights into how to support others in their grief and the importance of communication during such times.

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Transcript

Carrie McNulty (00:01)
It's Carrie's Always Talking and I'm your host Carrie McNulty. This is the podcast all about stories and connections. I believe that when people share their stories with one another, it's the main way that we build empathy and humanity, which is something I think we need more of in the world today. This is episode 16 of season two. I have a guest. Her name is Dr. Lynn Banis Dr. Lynn is a coach and she does a lot of work with grief.

She helps widows transform loneliness into connection and to reclaim their joy so that they can create a vibrant and more fulfilling new life. Unlike most grief and resilience mentors, she doesn't let her clients remain in pain and loneliness. She stays with them all the way through implementing their new chapter of life so that they can be assured they have truly transformed into their best self and into their best life.

Dr. Lynn was very knowledgeable and she also shares a lot about her own story of grief and loss. And so I think there's a lot of value in this episode. One thing I want to say about it is, in upon listening back and editing the episode, I realized I was not very present for this discussion. And as I was listening, I was thinking, where was I? You know, it's not flowing the way it normally does.

I'm having to come up with more questions and it's just, it's not as smooth as what I normally do or what I'm used to. And I really want to stress that this is no reflection on Dr. Lynn. She was great. You know, she was ready and fantastic and amazing. I really had to think about what the heck was going on with me that I wasn't really there as much as I should have been. And I feel bad because I didn't give her the best experience that I probably could have. And I didn't even realize it at the time.

But it's very relevant to the topic that we were talking about because as I was thinking about it, I was like, ⁓ yeah, this happens. There are times where I'm not really acting like myself or I don't really feel right and I don't always cognitively know what the reason is. This time of year, as much as I love it, October is my favorite month, I love fall, everything about it. It's also a time of year that holds an immense amount of grief for me.

And it just sort of has built more and more over the years with the losses that I have continued to accumulate. And I think there was a part of me that was really trying to distance myself from connecting with grief and what we were discussing in the episode in probably a protective way. Because I have experienced so much grief and loss, especially around this time of year. So when I was thinking about it, I was thinking, hmm, this probably has a lot to do with Archie who is our

one French Bulldog that we lost last year at the end of September, probably has a lot to do with the fact that, you know, just a couple days prior, my husband and I were attending services for somebody who was so lovely and died very young and suddenly, were good friends with her husband and with her. And so that was probably something I was trying to distance myself from to be present for my interview with Dr. Lynn. And then we have...

two other close friends that we've lost through the years in mid September. Not to mention, my bilateral mastectomy happened on October 1st, about 15 years ago. And so the grief of losing body parts is still very real 15 years later, even though I'm not always connected with it. I feel like our bodies just know. And when I take time to think about what was off, I think it was me trying to distance myself from the topic of grief. So I just wanted to be...

honest and vulnerable with you ⁓ because again it is no reflection on Dr. Lynn. She was fantastic. I just wasn't as present as I needed to be so I apologize for that. I do still think the episode is worth listening to because of what Dr. Lynn can offer but I just wanted to share that because I thought it was important especially as we are talking about grief that grief can be sneaky sometimes and you you don't always know

what your body is processing when your brain can't connect with it, if that makes sense. So yes, I just wanted to give that disclaimer. And as always, I wanna say thank you to the people that are listening. And if you're a new listener, I appreciate you like, share, review the podcast wherever you're listening if you can. And my other call to action is please donate to your local food banks if it is in your time or...

via financially, if that's something that you're able to do. Food insecurity is very real and is going to continue to be something concerning and ongoing that we're going to be dealing with as a society. So if you are able to help in any way, please do. If you want to come on the show, send me a message. Would love to hear your story. I'm thinking in a couple of weeks here, I might take a little break, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop recording with folks. So if you are interested, please let me know.

and reach out. That's always in the show notes.

I'm going to go ahead and let us get into the discussion with Dr. Lynn and as always take care of yourselves and I will talk to you in another couple of weeks.

Carrie McNulty (05:41.691)
Hi Dr. Lynn thank you so much for joining me. 

Lynn (05:44.482)
Hi, Carrie. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure. 

Carrie McNulty (05:47.077)
Absolutely. 

Carrie McNulty (05:49.088)
I think what we're going to talk about is grief today, Perfect, because I think especially in this time currently in our world, it's a very relevant topic. So can you tell me or start by telling us, me and my audience, about 

Lynn (05:53.295)
yeah. Yep. That's my wheelhouse. 

Lynn (06:06.748)
extremely. 

Carrie McNulty (06:16.834)
you know, what led you to start doing this work? 

Lynn (06:20.06)
Well, I spent most of my career in corporate America doing executive level training and global change management. And so I very well versed in coaching. I'm a master certified coach and in helping people be the best they could be. so after I retired, 

Lynn (06:48.54)
I invited my hundred year old mother to come live with us because there were three hurricanes heading directly for her. And, so we had her until she was 106, which was just amazing. However, yeah, shortly thereafter, my little brother died. That's not supposed to happen. And within the next year, my husband died. So I was thrown into this. 

Carrie McNulty (06:55.78)
Wow. 

Carrie McNulty (07:02.779)
That is amazing. 

Carrie McNulty (07:09.743)
No. 

Lynn (07:17.82)
you know, hell actually, you know, it's just, people just don't understand how difficult and painful it is to lose somebody. But I also work with people who have lost other things like their jobs, like retirement, anything where we lose our identity. We go through much of the same stuff. So anyway, as I muddled my way through that first year, 

Carrie McNulty (07:18.95)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (07:31.932)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (07:47.78)
I did something I would never ask my clients to do and that is I sold my big house and bought a smaller house because it was just too big. And I just didn't think I could care for it. looked like everywhere I looked, it was like, we need to do that. We need to do that. know? So anyway, within nine months I had moved and shortly thereafter my body said, stop now. 

Carrie McNulty (08:16.519)
Mm. 

Lynn (08:17.006)
And I was sick for three months because I had just pushed ahead. So I learned a lot. But during that time, I had lots of times to contemplate and figure out, know, where, who was I? What was I going to do? And it occurred to me that with my doctorate in organizational behavior and all my experience, I had all the tools I needed. And so I went back and looked at what 

Lynn (08:46.938)
what I did for myself and I decided, you know, nobody, nobody should have to do this alone. It's too difficult. We try to do it and one of our big mistakes is we try to recover what it was like before, but that's no longer there. That's right. 

Carrie McNulty (09:05.511)
Mm-hmm. Nope. Once it's gone, it's gone. Yeah. 

Lynn (09:11.44)
And so many people get stuck because they don't know what to do and they don't know which direction to go. They can't get their mind clear. So I decided to start, I started with widows rising together. And since then I have changed it to women rising together because there are so many of us who are quietly losing. 

Lynn (09:38.652)
parts of ourselves because of the burdens put on us day in and day out by society, by expectations, all of those sorts of things. And those are the women I really want to reach out to because most of them are very capable women, very capable women, and they've done extremely well for themselves in their life. They just have hit a place where parts of them have disappeared or they don't 

Carrie McNulty (09:42.439)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (09:55.035)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (10:07.59)
They no longer fit the life they're living. Something significant has changed and they're struggling. They're really struggling. So it's a difficult situation because many women don't want, well, first of all, they don't want to be called a widow, but secondly, they don't want to go to a grief group because so many of those turn out just to be, you know, misery sessions. And so, 

Carrie McNulty (10:10.631)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (10:24.999)
Thank 

Carrie McNulty (10:34.843)
Mm-hmm 

Lynn (10:36.634)
That I created something that I believe is so much more powerful. But, and I don't mean this as a negative, but, and I wait for women to get through the worst of the emotional stuff first. That's not what I deal with. I work with them once they begin, the fog begins to lift and they begin to say, well, who am I? Yeah, what now? 

Carrie McNulty (11:02.491)
Yeah, what now? 

Lynn (11:05.228)
And then I take them through an in-depth process where we look at their mindset, their beliefs, their values, all those things we get aligned so that there's not this craziness going on in their head. Do I do this? Do I do that? So we really get clear on who they are and we peel back a lot of that junk and let it go. 

Carrie McNulty (11:23.207)
Yeah. 

Lynn (11:32.224)


Lynn (11:32.705)
and then I work with them around, okay, when you are in flow, let's analyze that. And I think that's a big piece that nobody I know of does. so I come out with that at a very granular level, looking at not just I learned, but I learned by reading and I learned by reading this way. So it's very specific. So when they're in flow, they do these things automatically and it feels great. And they, know, everybody. 

Lynn (12:01.73)
everybody is so happy. But the other piece of that is what environment supports that. So we analyze that too. So that at that point then they're usually able to create a vision for what they want their future life to be. And we go ahead and map that out. They have a blueprint and then we go into 

Carrie McNulty (12:09.318)
Hmm 

Lynn (12:25.594)
a mastermind group with other women who are doing the same thing, implementing that new life. So they have a year of support for each other to make sure they've made a good and complete transition. you know, it's, it's so it's very different than most people offer. 

Carrie McNulty (12:35.399)
you 

Carrie McNulty (12:40.513)
Mmm. 

Carrie McNulty (12:45.285)
Right. It's very different than what somebody might think when you think about grief support for sure. Because initially you would think of it as the group where everybody's talking about their story. But what you're doing is letting them get through maybe with the work of a therapist or other supports in their life, letting them get to the place where they finally have realized what they've gone through. And then, you know, we're through the business mode of having to take care of wrapping up somebody's life and moving on with the next steps. And then they're ready. 

Carrie McNulty (13:14.331)
to find themselves again, which is really cool. 

Lynn (13:15.814)
Yeah, yeah, 

Lynn (13:17.627)
and that's really true. It's finding yourself, who were you, who did you come here to be? Because it's all been so covered up by life. 

Carrie McNulty (13:24.529)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (13:27.682)
you know, it speaks to me as a therapist who does a lot of parts work with people in internal family systems. You know, I hear you using that language of parts and who were they meant to be and how do we find their joy again and their purpose and what is it like to find flow? And I really love the idea of, because as women, we often don't have somebody that does for us everything that we do for the people in our lives. We carry the majority of pretty much everything. 

Lynn (13:50.332)
Sure 

Carrie McNulty (13:55.143)
And we make it look easy. Yes, absolutely. Hey, you've got it. You don't need any help. But then when something really big happens, like grief in your life, we aren't always so good at knowing how to let people help us either because we're so used to doing it all. So I love what you're offering because it's slow it down, break it down to tiny pieces. Let's really focus on you. 

Lynn (13:57.668)
Yeah, so they let us do it. 

Lynn (14:12.368)
All right. 

Carrie McNulty (14:22.723)
not your kids, not your other siblings who may be dealing with the loss as well, not the other people in the periphery, but let's really deal with you. Yeah. 

Lynn (14:31.28)
Right, right. 

Lynn (14:32.144)
We do deal with some of that other stuff because it impacts, as you know, I'm sure. 

Carrie McNulty (14:34.275)
Yeah, right. 

Carrie McNulty (14:37.399)
Right, but like the focus of the work, it sounds like from what you're saying is how do they find what they want in their future again? You know, these other people are obviously players in their life, but it's how to make their life about them again. 

Lynn (14:43.59)
Exactly. 

Lynn (14:48.54)
Exactly. 

Lynn (14:50.02)
you know, most of us, I remember standing in the grocery store with a box of cereal in each hand, looking at him going... 

Carrie McNulty (14:56.999)


Lynn (14:59.92)
Which one of these do I even like? I bought 

Carrie McNulty (15:01.239)
You 

Lynn (15:02.784)
these for my family. I don't like either of them. You lose it. You lose it all. You've lost yourself. So even the tiny things like what cereal do I like? It's just like, 

Carrie McNulty (15:08.079)
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Now I have 

Carrie McNulty (15:18.325)
space to think about this. I don't know. Yeah. How do I, how do I decide? or yeah, or maybe your tastes have changed, right? And you try something because like we said, once something's over, it's over. And I think that's such an important message, but it doesn't mean that 

Lynn (15:20.528)
Ha ha! 

Lynn (15:25.084)
Yeah. 

Lynn (15:28.003)
Absolutely. 

Carrie McNulty (15:35.994)
life is over or experiences are over, it's figuring out how to flow with what's going on now. 

Lynn (15:42.726)
Yeah. And I think one of the big things is women, 

Lynn (15:45.337)
people are so afraid they'll forget. And that's not the case. We rebuild or rediscover, should say, including that in honoring their experience. It's part of life. So we build around that and make sure that that is honored. It's not forgotten. It's given a very important place. And, you know, 

Carrie McNulty (15:50.341)
Hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (16:01.297)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (16:12.238)
What we're doing is moving forward because life moves forward. The world moves forward. You know, it's like, we're like plants. If we don't grow, if we don't move, we're going to die. So. 

Carrie McNulty (16:18.084)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (16:25.275)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (16:28.596)
I feel like that, again, that message is so relevant for really everything that we're dealing with. Like I said, at the start, societally, I'd feel like it's, there's this big move to recapture things that we shouldn't probably even want to recapture right now. But this idea that we're supposed to go back and have these same experiences and that life doesn't work that way. It's never the same. 

Lynn (16:47.982)
No, it doesn't. 

Lynn (16:50.933)
No, and I really am totally, totally convinced that every one of us is grieving the life that we lost before COVID. And most of the time people don't realize that they just think they're stressed, you know, and don't realize that they're actually grieving an important loss in their way of life. 

Carrie McNulty (16:59.768)
Absolutely. 

Carrie McNulty (17:05.573)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (17:12.197)
Well, and 

Carrie McNulty (17:14.329)
it's ongoing. It's still a mass disabling event. It's still killing people. It's still changing people's lives and how they live it. know my life is very different in how I live it as a very COVID conscious person, and it is sad. There is a lot of grief around that. Absolutely. 

Lynn (17:16.068)
Absolutely. 

Lynn (17:29.616)
Yes, there is. There is. 

Lynn (17:31.937)
we need to see our society has been so grief and death avoidant. 

Carrie McNulty (17:37.992)
Totally. 

Lynn (17:40.099)
We, you know, I think we look at those cultures that go ahead and cry and yell and get all that emotion out or, or they really celebrate it as a movement from one place to another that's 

Carrie McNulty (17:48.57)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (17:59.418)
wholly, we just don't talk about it. So we don't know how to handle it. 

Carrie McNulty (18:03.971)
No, we get three days. We get three days and then we're supposed to go back to life. Like, you're still upset about that? Of course. Yes. 

Lynn (18:12.698)
Why aren't you back 

Lynn (18:13.71)
to yourself? You're not as productive as you used to be. 

Carrie McNulty (18:15.867)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (18:19.26)
That's one of those don't get me started things. 

Carrie McNulty (18:19.567)
Yeah, it's a wild thing. No, please, let's hear it. I want to hear it. Yeah, it is 

Carrie McNulty (18:25.729)
so hard. Well, especially because you dealt with so much loss in such a short period of time. You know, that. 

Carrie McNulty (18:34.619)
That's just hard to even fathom. 

Carrie McNulty (18:38.511)
And somehow you turned that into eventually, how can I help other people go through this so they don't have to feel the way I was feeling maybe. Yeah. 

Lynn (18:47.686)
Yeah, 

Lynn (18:48.216)
yeah. And then there's just so much to learn. mean, three days of bereavement leave, it takes a good two years to get your feet underneath you again. I mean, the first year, everything is new. Everything. And you don't know how to handle it. The second year, these things come up and you go, my God, it's not going to change. This is it. And so you almost go through it again. 

Carrie McNulty (19:01.83)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (19:10.117)
Mm-hmm 

Carrie McNulty (19:13.616)
Yeah. 

Lynn (19:14.34)
Maybe not as deeply and not as consistent, but you know, these big tsunami waves come crashing over you at the most unexpected times. Yeah. Or, you know, one day I walked into a networking group and out of the corner of my eye, I saw a guy walk in and it looked just like my husband. I was just, you know, you don't. 

Carrie McNulty (19:21.22)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (19:24.645)
Well, like at the store trying to pick your cereal. 

Carrie McNulty (19:37.158)


Lynn (19:39.492)
You don't plan on those things. And so there's little things throughout the day that just trigger stuff. It can be music. It could be, you know, you turn the corner and there's a picture. You never know what's going to be a trigger for you. 

Carrie McNulty (19:46.854)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (19:53.191)


Carrie McNulty (19:54.592)
Yeah. How do you think some of the best ways for people to navigate that? Because sometimes people feel like when they allow themselves to grieve or have that space to still feel sad or think about their person or their loss. Because like you said, it could be a change in really anything major in their life that changes the way they look at themselves. It could be an illness. could be I'm eating disorder therapist. So it could be the change in people's bodies whenever they're recovered. Yeah. 

Lynn (20:18.46)
That's right. Trauma. Yeah. Losing a 

Lynn (20:22.181)
pet. People discount that, but no, no. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (20:23.119)
Yeah. No, it's huge. So 

Carrie McNulty (20:27.207)
what do you say to people who are, they feel like maybe they're back to square one because they still feel these waves come? How do you help them navigate that? 

Lynn (20:36.876)
You're not broken. You're recovering. You're 

Carrie McNulty (20:39.782)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (20:40.058)
rebuilding. You are experiencing the way grief is. as, who was it? Maya Angelou that said, grief is the price you pay for loving someone. And if you're still grieving, chances are that was a very deep love. 

Carrie McNulty (20:58.693)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (21:06.148)
And it's not to be discounted, it's to be honored. So those are times that I have learned that it's tough, but you need to sit with your emotions. You need to experience them and feel them. And you need to find ways to become kind of friends with it. And eventually what happens is you let it go as that deep loss. 

Carrie McNulty (21:08.007)
Thank 

Carrie McNulty (21:19.845)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (21:35.941)
and it becomes a cherished memory. And it doesn't happen overnight. And there's a lot of hurt in between. And you know, I remember just even the loneliness, I felt like it hurt physically. It was so deep and so profound. So, you know, I understand all that. And I do also understand that we have to, doesn't work to just get our brain wrapped around it. 

Carrie McNulty (21:38.801)
Hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (21:42.567)
Thank 

Lynn (22:06.198)
we have to let it get in somatically into our bodies so that our body is accepting it. you know, our body often accepts things before our brain. So if we keep saying things to ourself like this is horrible, this is awful, we're just making it buried deeper and deeper and deeper in those convolutions in our brain, you know. So being able to... 

Carrie McNulty (22:09.285)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (22:29.935)
Yeah, yeah. 

Lynn (22:34.966)
look at it as not that, not this happened to me, more of a, this is my environment now. How do I learn? How do I make the best out of this? How do I move in a way that's honoring and, and helps me grow? 

Lynn (23:01.902)
So I think all of that is really important. And there's so many little things. mean, traditions change. Don't feel bad about changing traditions. You know, I told my kids that first Christmas, said, I cannot do the formal Christmas dinner I've done all my life. I just can't look at that empty chair. I can't do it. And they said, can't either. So we sat down and started talking about, what do we want to do? 

Carrie McNulty (23:11.003)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (23:20.327)
Hmm. 

Lynn (23:31.419)
We decided we just wanted to have everybody is at home in the morning, opening their presents and all that kind of stuff. And we gather in the afternoon and we said, let's just relax. 

Carrie McNulty (23:42.993)
Thank 

Lynn (23:43.715)
So I just put out all sorts of sandwich meat and everything, and we made our own sandwiches and we sat around and we get giggled and we, you know, we brought things up. had had had them giving them all a little Mason jar at Thanksgiving. 

Lynn (24:00.994)
And I said, every time you think about this person, think about something fun or funny that you admire, that you had fun, write it on a slip of paper and put it in the jar. So we took the jars Christmas afternoon and we started pulling these things out and we would just get hysterical laughing at some of the memories, which was so cathartic. It was just so healing for everybody. 

Carrie McNulty (24:14.118)
I love that. 

Carrie McNulty (24:29.071)
I love that idea. Yeah. I think that's a great idea even for people probably on their own, right? To just every now and then to pull something out and think of their person or think of the whatever, right? I love that. Yeah. 

Lynn (24:35.721)
yeah, yeah. 

Lynn (24:42.968)
Yeah, the job they loved, the coworkers 

Lynn (24:45.993)
they loved, the pet they lost, you know, any of those things. Retirement's another big one. Nobody wants me anymore. I'm useless. Who am I? 

Carrie McNulty (24:48.838)
Mm. 

Carrie McNulty (24:53.479)
Mmm. 

Carrie McNulty (24:57.831)
Well, especially 

Carrie McNulty (24:59.363)
if your identity was really wrapped up and your mastery was really wrapped up in what you did for work. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lynn (25:05.25)
And for many of us, that's the case. 

Lynn (25:08.223)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that we're dealing with this deep grief and the, already know the loneliness is, is rampant. It's at epidemic. No, that's not the word I want. It's just at the level that it's everywhere. 

Carrie McNulty (25:19.695)
Mm-hmm. Mm. 

Carrie McNulty (25:30.919)
Yeah. 

Lynn (25:31.841)
And we are not helping things by using so much technology. And the cell phones, people don't know how to talk to each other anymore. 

Carrie McNulty (25:42.663)
Agreed. I agreed. get a little concerned with people who, just even in my work that don't want to write their own notes or are using AI or chat GPT to write emails or to text to people. like, come on. It's important to still know how to do those things for yourself. Yes. Well, yeah. And we need people. 

Lynn (25:58.107)
Yeah. 

Lynn (26:01.512)
Right. And communication is everything. Everything. Really. So... 

Carrie McNulty (26:12.197)
We need people when we're grieving. 

Lynn (26:15.194)
We do need people and there's often the desire to hunker down and stay away from people. There's a number of reasons why, but here's something that may be helpful to people. I was asked by a friend to go out for coffee and I didn't want to go. I just didn't want to go. mean, I didn't even want to leave the house for anything. 

Carrie McNulty (26:22.319)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (26:38.663)
You 

Lynn (26:44.102)
But this little boy said, go. And I did. And I sat there and after about a half an hour, I thought, this is the first time in months where somebody didn't try to fix me. Where somebody was just there for me. 

Carrie McNulty (27:03.42)
Hmm. 

Lynn (27:05.774)
And I think, you know, our inclination is to help, let's fix, let's make it better. But that doesn't, it doesn't happen. That's not, that's not helpful. Just listen, just be there for somebody. 

Carrie McNulty (27:10.063)
Yeah, take it away. No. 

Carrie McNulty (27:15.716)
No. 

Carrie McNulty (27:20.731)
Well, yeah, that kind of leads me to for people who are trying to support someone who's grieving. What are some of the best things and maybe some things to not do? 

Lynn (27:29.649)
I have a laundry list of those. 

Lynn (27:34.292)
First of all, recognize that the person is alone. If they have a family that, you know, then that's, that's there, that's there. But often people come and show up for a little bit and then, and then go home. So, I mean, I got so many 13 by nine casseroles of lasagna. 

Carrie McNulty (27:49.425)
Yes. 

Carrie McNulty (27:59.495)
You 

Lynn (27:59.58)


Lynn (28:01.041)
For me and every time one of my girls would come over I'd be and they'd be going no no more we can't eat anymore that stuff. So think think what is one person going to eat when they're not hungry they don't feel like eating. So think about maybe a little bowl of fruit maybe some crackers and cheese something that they don't have to cook because they don't feel like it. 

Carrie McNulty (28:05.103)
Here, take this. 

Carrie McNulty (28:28.325)
Yeah. 

Lynn (28:28.976)
but that they can grab and graze on. A small bag of groceries left at the front door. Coming in and just sitting. You don't have to talk. If you see that the dishes aren't done, it's perfectly okay to just go do it, but don't say anything about it. Just go do it. And the things that we tend to say, we don't realize how hurtful they are. 

Carrie McNulty (28:48.201)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (28:59.034)
You know, he's in a better place. And where I am is, no, I want him here. Don't tell me that. Yes. Yes. So, you know, just be careful, be careful, be careful. Don't try to give advice. Just acknowledge. I get it that you're really sad. You can't say, I know how you feel because you don't unless you've been through it. There's no way you can know. 

Carrie McNulty (28:59.215)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (29:04.775)
Right. I think the better place would be here with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (29:28.826)
And even then everybody's experiences are so unique. You may have lost somebody similar, like a sibling, but that relationship was unique and the feelings that you feel are your own. yeah, I think that's, we are so used to trying to convince people to kind of quickly move through their grief, right? Because we're uncomfortable, 

Lynn (29:31.825)
Yeah. 

Lynn (29:50.434)
Exactly. Exactly. 

Carrie McNulty (29:51.259)
right? 

Lynn (29:52.526)
That's the big thing. So, you know, that's another piece that I really try to work on is I try to speak to groups. You know, this is what you do. This is how you handle it. These are the kinds of things you say. These are the kinds of things you don't say. Please understand that this is what grief is like. They're not going to be the same person and they're not going to be back to producing the way they did, you know, for a long time. 

Carrie McNulty (29:53.659)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (30:06.268)
Yeah. 

Lynn (30:20.474)
Give them space. 

Carrie McNulty (30:23.025)
Yeah. 

Lynn (30:25.04)
But you know, the sad 

Lynn (30:25.94)
thing is even those of us who are grieving have to take it on ourselves to teach people how to treat us, which is hard. That's really hard when you're so miserable yourself. 

Carrie McNulty (30:35.333)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (30:39.771)
Well, yeah, mean, you barely have energy to get out of bed and do your day. It's very hard to tell people what you need. And that's sort of the expectation. I mean, that's even something that people say, tell me if you need anything. Well, exactly. I have no idea what. 

Lynn (30:56.58)
I don't know what I need. Just 

Lynn (31:00.002)
sit. Just give me a call once in a while and say, hey, I'm thinking about you. I love you. know, don't push it, but just be there. 

Carrie McNulty (31:06.139)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (31:12.366)
And it's hard. And we know that it's uncomfortable, but that's because you're uncomfortable. The person you're visiting isn't uncomfortable. They are just feeling supported. 

Carrie McNulty (31:18.919)
Great. 

Carrie McNulty (31:25.679)
Yeah. Do you think it's okay to say to somebody, I'm not sure what to say to you. okay. Yeah. 

Lynn (31:30.97)
Yes. Yeah. 

Lynn (31:33.564)
I'm not sure what to say to you, but I want you to know I really care. 

Carrie McNulty (31:36.934)
Yeah, and that's probably preferable to they're in a better place or... 

Lynn (31:43.0)
my gosh. 

Lynn (31:46.686)
I mean, it just, if you see the look on somebody's face when you say that, pay attention, pay attention. cause you, you just, that's just so devastating. 

Carrie McNulty (32:00.315)
Why do you think, and this might be a tough question to ask or to answer, I think more so is, why do think we do struggle so much with grief or letting people have their grieving process or wanting to speed it up? 

Lynn (32:12.624)
because we're not skilled, we don't know what to do, how to act, we're terrified that we're gonna say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing and hurt them even more. And so there's nothing in our society that teaches us nothing. And I think that's a big problem, big education problem, because it's, I we're all gonna die, we're all gonna lose our family. 

Carrie McNulty (32:24.048)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (32:41.102)
Yes. 

Lynn (32:41.882)
That's the way it is, so we need to learn to deal with it in a healthy way. 

Carrie McNulty (32:45.958)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (32:48.401)
Well, yeah, there's multiple ways to deal that maybe aren't the most adaptive. But I think you're right. think it's so scary for people to think about it. It's same with illnesses. If somebody is sick and people will want to know all the details about it because they'll say things like, well, did that run in your family? Or is that why you got sick? is that when really that's just an attempt to distance themselves from that maybe happening to them? It's the discomfort of it all. 

Lynn (32:52.048)
Yeah. 

Lynn (33:14.0)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (33:17.391)
And this is not to criticize anybody who does say these things. This is more about learning, how can I better support somebody? 

Lynn (33:22.84)
Exactly. Exactly. 

Lynn (33:25.162)
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, we're not punishing anybody. We're just trying to help you understand that when someone is in that kind of a spot emotionally, and sometimes physically, they're not able to deal with it. 

Carrie McNulty (33:30.534)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (33:39.482)
Yes, tell me more about how 

Carrie McNulty (33:44.138)
you felt so unwell for those months. Because I think people don't realize that grief can cause a lot of physical pain and also illness. 

Lynn (33:51.936)
I went from one cold to the flu to, you know, just anything that was in the air. And I wasn't even going out. You know, it was just my, my, my immune system, my whole system was just burned out, you know, just, just wrecked. And because I had kept pushing and pushing and pushing, which was the way I had lived my life before that. have learned, I've learned a lot. 

Carrie McNulty (33:55.846)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (34:00.726)
Right, right. 

Carrie McNulty (34:06.364)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (34:09.125)
Yeah, yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (34:15.877)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (34:20.411)
Wow. What a hard way to learn too, to be like, no, three months, I'm out of commission basically because, it sounds like you felt like you needed to keep yourself busy too. Yes. 

Lynn (34:25.605)
You 

Lynn (34:32.73)
I didn't need to, I've always been busy and 

Lynn (34:35.922)
I needed to do that, I didn't give myself time to recover on the weekend or whatever. 

Carrie McNulty (34:42.567)


Carrie McNulty (34:44.694)
So is that part of what you try to teach those you're working with too is. Yeah. 

Lynn (34:48.964)
Yeah, 

Lynn (34:50.189)
self-care is absolutely huge. 

Carrie McNulty (34:56.537)
What are the issues that widows or people who are facing loss face after the five stages of grief, after they've worked through some of the more emotional parts of it? 

Lynn (35:09.444)
I think that so much of it is working with the psychological, the way we speak to ourselves, you what are our self-limiting beliefs and are those beliefs useful anymore? Are they even true? But then are they useful? And let's replace them with something that's more supportive for you. I think we just don't, we just don't look at those 

Carrie McNulty (35:25.147)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (35:37.447)
kind of beliefs, and we just accept them. And our mindset, our worldview, all of those things, our perception of life and other people and ourselves needs a lot of attention. 

Carrie McNulty (35:40.071)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (35:55.729)
So would you say that could look like being more compassionate self-talk or even neutral if you can't be compassionate? Yeah. 

Lynn (36:03.878)
Right, right. 

Lynn (36:05.229)
Yeah. You know, and there's things out there that are very confusing, do you call it? Affirmations. You know, saying, I am healed. No, no, your brain doesn't believe that at all. I am in the process of healing. That's a whole different thing. So, you know, we've got to be so careful. 

Carrie McNulty (36:15.355)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (36:22.535)
you 

Carrie McNulty (36:28.038)
Yeah. 

Lynn (36:32.006)
who we listen to and how we talk to ourselves because there's a lot of false information that isn't gonna be helpful. 

Carrie McNulty (36:35.289)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (36:42.137)
No, no, I think that saying I am healed is passing over all the emotions that you need to feel. It's like little tabs that stay open in your brain. You have to close out the tabs before we get to that place. And yeah, or I'd like to get to the place where I can be healed or whatever, right? It's just a step along the way. 

Lynn (36:49.724)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (36:52.774)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Lynn (37:00.634)
Yeah. I like to say I'm 

Lynn (37:03.039)
in the process because usually, usually you have some, some movement at that point. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (37:09.095)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (37:12.255)
How is it different when you're dealing with grief with the loss of a loved one or a spouse versus trauma? 

Lynn (37:21.937)
Well, I think that trauma is something that is not avoidable. mean, you can get yourself busy thinking about something other than what's happened to you, but if you've lost a body part or something, it's there. know, or mean, it's whatever, it's not there. I'm sorry, didn't mean that to be funny. Yeah, it's unavoidable. You're always aware of it. You can't get your mind off of it. 

Carrie McNulty (37:38.79)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (37:42.765)
Yeah, right, right. Like, it's unavoidable. Yeah, it's unavoidable. Yeah. 

Lynn (37:52.442)
However, I think most of the emotional stuff is very similar. I think one big difference is... 

Lynn (38:05.146)
that you can't help somebody imagining their new life without allowing them the space to say it has to be really, really different. I can no longer do this or I can no longer do that. But if you can help them get to the point where they are saying, I choose to do this, help them find... 

Carrie McNulty (38:17.383)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (38:29.979)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (38:33.652)
spin out some possibilities, some different ones, help, because that's a sense of having some control over something when you can say, all right, these are three things I could do, I choose this one. So, you I think that helping people feel that they have some control over pieces, because we spend so much time worrying about what we don't have control over and there's nothing we can do about it. 

Carrie McNulty (38:45.115)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (38:57.061)
And that's pretty much, there's so much 

Carrie McNulty (38:59.837)
that we don't have control over. So, so much. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lynn (39:02.544)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (39:07.397)
and see. 

Carrie McNulty (39:11.235)
With today's global and political, environmental, all of that stuff happening, how does grief play into that, what we're experiencing in the world and just climate change, all those things? 

Lynn (39:26.351)
All of those, yeah, change is one of those things that our bodies and minds mostly don't like it very much. Most people are not really, you know, big on a lot of change. So it's forced on us and it makes us feel out of control. And we don't understand what it is. We don't understand what can happen if we don't 

Carrie McNulty (39:36.391)
No. 

Carrie McNulty (39:41.392)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (39:55.46)
work with it and treat it because we now know it's been, you know, I think it's in all of the medical literature now that there is such thing as a broken heart and you can die from a broken heart. We can get very sick, all different kinds of illness from the stress and the emotional upset and the strain on our bodies. 

Carrie McNulty (40:06.875)
Yeah. 

Lynn (40:25.082)
You know, because we don't want to eat, we don't eat right, we don't take care of ourselves, we don't sleep well. mean, everything we know we need to do is messed up. So, I think that being able to call it what it is, is a major step and recognize that's what it is. And this is what it can do to a human being. And I recognize myself in this. 

Carrie McNulty (40:26.854)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (40:32.027)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (40:44.07)
Yeah. 

Lynn (40:54.158)
And in this, so I have a plan. I'm going to do whatever it is that you decide you want to do, but be proactive. Be proactive. Don't let it, don't let it sit and fester. 

Carrie McNulty (40:58.149)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (41:08.177)
Well, I think you're so right that if we don't call it what it is, which is grief, you with all the changes, we can't, if we keep being in denial about all of it, you know, we don't, we don't get the chance to make decisions. They are still happening. Things are still happening, whether you choose or you don't choose not choosing as a decision. And there's an outcome to that, that you don't have a say over. You still might at the end of the day, not be individually able to say, I've made a change that 

Lynn (41:29.084)
Exactly. 

Carrie McNulty (41:36.814)
I can now manage climate change, but if you acknowledge that things like that are happening in the world, then you can start to acknowledge your grief around it. Like you said, call it what it is. It's grief. And you're right, we don't like to change much. And some of us have lived lives that have forced getting cozy with change. And for people who haven't had those experiences, it's so, so painful and scary. 

Lynn (41:46.448)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

Lynn (41:58.726)
Yes! 

Lynn (42:06.82)
It is. Absolutely. 

Carrie McNulty (42:07.385)
You know, 

Carrie McNulty (42:09.117)
but speaking about it and connecting around it takes a lot of that fear away. 

Lynn (42:14.982)
You know, I think people need also to learn to not sit around and complain and poor me, and this happened to me and blah, blah, blah. Instead of that saying, okay, this happened and this is what I've learned from it and this is what I did and maybe it'll help one of you. So, you know, we're in a situation, staying in it isn't healthy, but 

Carrie McNulty (42:24.091)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (42:37.019)
Yeah. 

Lynn (42:44.88)
figuring out how to move forward. So what do I do now? And be creative. 

Carrie McNulty (42:51.655)


Carrie McNulty (42:53.796)
What are some, know, you know, probably can't talk about individual cases with people, but what are some of the big, you know, seeing people at some of their harder, lower places without maybe even knowing who they are anymore? What kind of changes have you seen in people and doing your work where they do have direction and purpose? What has that been like? What has there been like some pretty big turnarounds and changes 

Lynn (43:15.255)
yeah. yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (43:15.286)
that you've witnessed? Yeah. 

Lynn (43:16.645)
I had a client who had, had been very high level, corporate planner for, you know, events and, that all went away for a while. So she lost that job and she had loved it, traveled all over the world. And as we were talking and she, you know, she grieved over that a lot and got very, you know, 

Carrie McNulty (43:28.177)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (43:32.487)
Mm-hmm. 

Lynn (43:44.694)
lost, well, who am I now? And what do I do? And so we talked about what she loved to do. And one of the things was needlework, needlepoint, all sorts of textile things. And so we started just putting random things together. How would this work? How would that? She came up with, she is now leading trips to various parts of the world. 

Lynn (44:13.222)
to study lace in Belgium. You know, different things, different kinds of, well, they went to some Indian reservations and spent quite a bit of time learning about, you know, how they were making their clothes and all of these different kinds of fabrics and textiles. And she had been involved so much with all of this. 

Lynn (44:42.618)
getting things together that she knew how to get into places where most people can't. So she actually was able to take people into, watch people making the lace in Belgium and they don't let anybody in. So, you know, she's doing it and then she's bringing in some of the best teachers she can find. And so they're having just a wonderful time and she loves it. 

Carrie McNulty (44:49.404)
Hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (44:58.597)
That's so cool. 

Carrie McNulty (45:11.397)
Yeah. And being so creative, that part of her, reigniting that, gave her direction. That's so cool. 

Lynn (45:15.399)
That's right. 

Lynn (45:17.55)
That's right. So, you know, that, that was, that was a very, very big one. I have seen people, you know, go, people have started businesses. People have decided, you know what? I don't want to do that. I just want to be able to have a quiet life. want to not feel guilty about reading or doing. 

Carrie McNulty (45:40.913)
Hmm. 

Lynn (45:42.662)
crafts or hobbies. I just want to feel good about what I'm doing and, you know, and I want to not care what other people think. 

Carrie McNulty (45:55.815)
yes, that's the goal, right? I feel like part 

Carrie McNulty (46:01.467)
of that starts to happen as you get a little bit older as a woman, which is nice, right? That matters less. But I think especially in the context of, I think that sometimes people expect you to grieve forever too, in some ways. Like you're not allowed to express the emotion, but you're supposed to put your life on hold in some ways forever too, right? So maybe that's. 

Lynn (46:05.04)
Yeah, yes. 

Lynn (46:14.301)
yes, yes. 

Lynn (46:20.88)
Exactly. Yeah. You're not 

Lynn (46:23.073)
supposed to date, for instance. Well, that, you must not have loved him very much if you're already, you know, no. 

Carrie McNulty (46:24.43)
Yes, exactly. 

Carrie McNulty (46:28.409)
Yes. Right. mean, people have a lot of thoughts and opinions that they like to share about these things. 

Carrie McNulty (46:36.864)
But yeah, I could see why some people are like, I want to do the things that I enjoy without feeling guilt around them while still honoring the person that I've lost or the job that I lost or the whatever it is. And they should be free to do that. I'm guessing your group that you have with women when they're doing their year long support is pretty powerful and pretty uplifting. 

Lynn (46:42.758)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Lynn (46:56.298)
incredibly 

Lynn (46:56.969)
powerful. And you know, so many of them just stay friends forever. So many of them say, we don't want to quit the group. We want to keep going. 

Carrie McNulty (47:02.983)
Can 

Carrie McNulty (47:05.25)
we do a little spinoff over here of this group? 

Lynn (47:10.234)
which is, you know, that's so healthy for them because they've gotten the support and we, you we don't, and you know this, we don't heal alone. We need to be with people who can support us, who understand, who don't criticize, who accept us for who we are and what we're going through. 

Carrie McNulty (47:13.063)
Thank 

Carrie McNulty (47:30.492)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And who are also taking steps, even though their paths will look different, right? Their blueprint that you've made for each person is going to look different, or with each person is going look different. But they're all, everybody is helping to hold one another accountable in a supportive way, it sounds like. Yeah, that's great. 

Lynn (47:45.788)
Yes. Yeah. 

Lynn (47:47.728)
Yeah. And they do have buddies, you know, they buddy up so that they can, we work. They have assignments and stuff to go out and try and talk to their buddy. But, know, I tried this and it worked this way, but I wasn't comfortable. Well, let's talk about what we could do to be more comfortable. You know, so they learn a little bit of the, of the coaching piece to help each other. 

Carrie McNulty (47:49.927)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (47:53.049)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (47:57.296)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (48:04.07)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (48:07.015)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (48:13.659)
That's 

Carrie McNulty (48:13.92)
cool. And is this, is it in person? Is it virtual? Is it both? How does that work? Cool. 

Lynn (48:18.394)
It's both, you know, 

Lynn (48:19.705)
if I have people in, that live close together, that's great for in-person, but that doesn't usually happen, you know. Zoom does its job. 

Carrie McNulty (48:24.879)
Yeah. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (48:30.375)
That's a good 

Carrie McNulty (48:31.736)
thing that I think has come out of, but we wouldn't be talking if that wouldn't have happened. So that's a change that came from the world being totally turned upside down that made this possible. yeah. So I of course will include how to contact you in the show notes. So if anybody hears this and they're like, you know, I'm at the stage where I feel really ready. Do you ever have, so that they can reach out to you, do you ever have people who have not 

Lynn (48:35.9)
go. 

Carrie McNulty (48:59.611)
quite gotten to the place yet where you can do what you would like to do with them or what would be good for them. And if so, how do you manage those referrals or those folks that come your way? 

Lynn (49:09.306)
Well, I have some people that I can refer them to, and I also have a list that, know, checklists of, so they can vet people and make sure they're getting the kind of support that they need. and I would love to just send you, a couple of things they can download. I'd be glad to do one around, you know, how do you deal with people that are grieving and, and then some. 

Carrie McNulty (49:12.708)
Awesome. 

Carrie McNulty (49:21.436)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (49:29.249)
yeah. 

Lynn (49:37.455)
other things that might be, you know, five steps of this or, or whatever that might be helpful for people. I do have, I don't know when you're going to show this, but I'm doing a holiday, you know, how to survive holidays when you don't feel like it kind of thing. Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (49:40.529)
Yeah. 

Carrie McNulty (49:47.12)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (49:52.791)
yeah, that could be useful. Those are right around the corner. know, it'll be 

Carrie McNulty (49:58.275)
blink and it will be Thanksgiving at this point. So yeah. Yeah, that'll be so helpful. I would love to include all of that in the show notes so that people could have those resources and then also find a way to connect with you. Is there anything that we didn't cover or any question I didn't ask that you feel like it would be important to share or anything that you want to say that maybe we missed? 

Lynn (50:00.196)
I know it. I know it. 

Lynn (50:10.074)
Absolutely. 

Lynn (50:19.63)
I think the most important thing is for people to understand that everything that they have done in their life, everything they've dealt with, everything they've learned, all has prepared them for where they are right now. So you have what you need in you. Let somebody help you find that. 

Carrie McNulty (50:41.318)
Mm-hmm. 

Carrie McNulty (50:44.431)
Yeah, yeah, it may be buried because you've been doing, you know, a lot of jobs, wearing a lot of hats, but yeah, we all have skills. We all have capabilities. I love that. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with needing some help to get back to that either because we... 

Lynn (50:48.052)
yeah! 

Lynn (50:55.697)
Yeah. 

Lynn (51:00.1)
No, there 

Lynn (51:01.244)
isn't, there isn't. It's a very smart thing, actually. 

Carrie McNulty (51:04.303)
And we've never, 

Carrie McNulty (51:05.244)
we're not given a handbook of how to deal with grief. Like I said, we're not really, we don't even speak about it well. So we don't, we certainly don't know how to act about it either. So yeah, I love that. I really, really appreciate you and the work that you're doing. And thank you so much for coming on and sharing today because I know that there are people who could use your support or just even learning more or talking about grief is so important. So thank you. 

Lynn (51:14.48)
That's right. 

Lynn (51:31.878)
Yeah. 

Lynn (51:32.449)
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share what I know and what I offer. 

Carrie McNulty (51:37.608)
Absolutely. Yes. 

Carrie McNulty (51:40.815)
For everybody listening, we'll be back again in another couple of weeks with another episode. And until then, take good care of yourselves and we'll talk soon.